Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Ayu wrote:That pro isn't valid. I can interact nicely with other smokers without smoking myself. At least outdoors, because there I don't have to smoke passively.

I gave up smoking twenty years ago. That was most difficult for me. So, I guess, the real Pro for smoking is:
- "Very difficult to give up. Nikotin is as highly addictive as heroine."

Does that count as a Pro?

It took me 13 or 14 tries over a bunch of years to fully quit smoking. So happy that's done with. For a habit that addictive, you don't get much out of it lol, it's pretty boring.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by DGA »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Ayu wrote:That pro isn't valid. I can interact nicely with other smokers without smoking myself. At least outdoors, because there I don't have to smoke passively.

I gave up smoking twenty years ago. That was most difficult for me. So, I guess, the real Pro for smoking is:
- "Very difficult to give up. Nikotin is as highly addictive as heroine."

Does that count as a Pro?

It took me 13 or 14 tries over a bunch of years to fully quit smoking. So happy that's done with. For a habit that addictive, you don't get much out of it lol, it's pretty boring.
This is something I never understood about cigarettes. why go through all that work and expense for something that doesn't even get you high or make you smarter or anything? It just makes you smell like an idiot and you have to pay for that.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

DGA wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Ayu wrote:That pro isn't valid. I can interact nicely with other smokers without smoking myself. At least outdoors, because there I don't have to smoke passively.

I gave up smoking twenty years ago. That was most difficult for me. So, I guess, the real Pro for smoking is:
- "Very difficult to give up. Nikotin is as highly addictive as heroine."

Does that count as a Pro?

It took me 13 or 14 tries over a bunch of years to fully quit smoking. So happy that's done with. For a habit that addictive, you don't get much out of it lol, it's pretty boring.
This is something I never understood about cigarettes. why go through all that work and expense for something that doesn't even get you high or make you smarter or anything? It just makes you smell like an idiot and you have to pay for that.
That's the worse thing about them, really terrible, but not much fun. SO addictive though, beyond any of the other stuff I've tried, including months spent on opiate pain killers.

It was way easier to become a non-drinker than a non-smoker, but admittedly drinking is much more fun.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by newbie »

Since I'm not smoking nor vaping, it's my mistake that I got myself pulled into the discussion.
My appologies!
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

I started smoking in college. I was part of a study group and half the people smoked. This was in Cleveland, OH, with lake effect snow. And nobody opened a window because it was so *dang* cold.

Everybody was so *dang* tense right before the final. By this point, most of us were pulling out our hair, and the smokers were chain smoking. All the debating, the analyzing, and the moments of hilarity that insued over the semester got all caught up, for me, with the smoking thing.

Finally, at, one point, I said, "Oh, just gimme a *dang* cigarette, already!" partially for the shock factor and to break the tension. Partially because I was inhaling so much second-hand smoke, I was more-or-less addicted at that point anyway - I had begun to really enjoy those study sessions. I thought the smell of the smoke was just part of the energized atmosphere of the group that I enjoyed. What was really happening was that addiction was beginning to take hold, and I folded and gave in.

I guess you could say it was a subtle sort of peer pressure. Nobody urged me to smoke, or chided me for not doing so. I admired some of those people, not because of the fact that they smoked, but because they had sharp minds. We laughed and joked a lot. We buckled down and worked hard. And I started smoking.

And, as smoking goes, a few cigarettes turned into a pack, a pack turned into two - then there was the pleasure of that after-dinner smoke. And then... Ooh! Menthol! Ooh! Clove cigarettes! Ooh! Cigars, pipe tobacco...

Smoking became like an old friend. Always there if I was upset, worried, relaxed, having fun... Everything was better with a cigarette!

Then the coughing. Then the wheezing. Then the, "$#!+ ! Why do I do this to myself??"

So I quit. For three years. Graduated college. Got a stressful job...

Started smoking.

"Hey, ole college buddy! Missed ya. Good times, huh?"

And the coughing, and the wheezing....

Tried the patch. :? Kept smoking.

Tried the gum. Chewed a lot of freakin' gum. :thinking: "What's the point?" Kept smoking.

Tried chantix :stirthepot: :alien: :juggling: :woohoo: :pig: :rolling: :sage: :?: :tantrum: :spy: :jawdrop: :rolleye:

:crazy:

Stopped the chantix. Few weeks later - started smoking.

So, yeah... I'm not going to sing the praises of vaping. But I haven't had a cigarette in three years and can't stand the smell of them, or the thought of going back. So :shrug:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Yeah vaping is probably a better idea, but it's so unregulated,hopefully there are reputable companies you can get "safer"e juice or whatever from?

Incidentally, I wasn't able to quit until I was unemployed, that made it SO much easier.

http://mic.com/articles/130069/will-vap ... .GByTSAoux
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

Yeah, especially with the way the price of a pack of cigarettes has gone up since I started...!

The regulation thing is an issue. A lot of people make their own "juice" - but I'd trust that even less.
A lot of the more reputable companies follow FDA cGMP even though they aren't regulated. It will be, inevitably, and they want the documentation on hand so they don't get shut down immediately. Which, is good for the consumer because it makes for a safer product.

A big thing is the wattage. If you keep the wattage low, a lot of the possible risk is eliminated. Some people max out the wattage to look like a freakin' dragon and I think that's just silly.

You also want to cut the nicotine content on a regular basis. It's really the easiest method I've ever found to do so. I was always fond of a good pipe tobacco, and I've found that mixing different flavors (some caramel, a little chocolate, a little hazelnut, a little bit of berry) tastes like a good pipe tobacco - but even better. And way, way less nicotine.

But, I worry I'm just trading a smoking habit for a vaping habit. But, may come a time the nicotine is so low, I'll be like,"meh" and just quit. If the craving does come back, it's a better alternative to coffin nails. :smile:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

Thanks for the link! I've heard about the diacetyl controversy. Most of the "buttery" flavors (any kind of custard, popcorn -heh, yeah... - french toast, Cinnabon..) aren't that great. Some stuff is just way too strong a flavor for my taste - its better to take small ammounts of different flavors and find a mix you like. Even so, wattage, wattage, wattage... See those "dragon ladies" in the article? Nah. Not the way I do it.
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by DGA »

MindTheGap wrote: I worry I'm just trading a smoking habit for a vaping habit. But, may come a time the nicotine is so low, I'll be like,"meh" and just quit. If the craving does come back, it's a better alternative to coffin nails. :smile:
that's the way. I wish you good health.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

DGA wrote:
MindTheGap wrote: I worry I'm just trading a smoking habit for a vaping habit. But, may come a time the nicotine is so low, I'll be like,"meh" and just quit. If the craving does come back, it's a better alternative to coffin nails. :smile:
that's the way. I wish you good health.
Thanks to all for the encouragement. :smile:

The conversation sort of took a nosedive into smoking/vaping, but I really do want to explore the topic of what qualifies as an intoxicant.

For example, I know that the advice commonly given about prescription medications is that, if it is prescribed for a medical condition, it's ok. It's the abuse of such medicine that causes harm.

Recently, I hurt my back and was put on a muscle relaxer. The stuff was so strong, I couldn't form coherent sentences. I cut the tablet in half and I still conked out for most of the day. That meant that I was so incoherent that I couldn't practice, besides the fact that I don't like ingesting anything that causes me to lose my mental faculties in such a radical manner. Also, because of my history of smoking and thus showing an obvious proclivity for addiction, I try to avoid any medication or substance that has the possibility of addiction (opiates, and the like). The pain isn't fun, but it's better, I tell myself, than the pain I would suffer if I became addicted - I have one addiction that I'm trying to rid myself of already. I have friends who took opiates to treat a medical condition and ended up becoming addicted. This is not uncommon these days, and is something we should extend compassion for, not judgement.

Another obvious example is the medical use of marijuana. I'm not judging about whether it is good or bad - but, it is an intoxicant. It is supposed to have other medicinal properties, but I don't know enough about that to comment.

However, I wonder if, by not taking my medicine as prescribed, I'm not hurting my body by not allowing it to heal properly. :shrug: I'm not a doctor, so I don't really know (I suppose I should ask my doctor, whom I'll be seeing on Monday). But, from a Buddhist perspective, is it better to take the medication to help your body heal or, if you feel it interferes with your practice, forego it all together? Pain can interfere with practice too, I suppose - but you can practice with pain. You can't practice in oblivion.

Also.. I was hoping I wouldn't have to bring it up, but...

What about coffee?

Some people are just as addicted to coffee as other people are to cigarettes. I think that this is apparent to anyone who knows an avid coffee drinker, and I can see that the craving for coffee could be an obstruction to practice. So, could that be seen in terms of an intoxicant, or is it just a part of dealing with one's own cravings in general?

I myself don't like coffee. It doesn't agree with me, uh, gastrointestinally. I do like a good strong tea, but I don't crave it.

I think, once again, it comes down to how fine a point one wants to put on it. But, I'm interested in how individual practitioners frame these things in view of their own practice. Or, what other things people might have to contribute to the conversation - such as was brought up earlier about TV and the Internet.

Hopefully, we can agree to disagree on some things and not try to provoke one-another. Let's keep in mind that, in a format such as this, it's hard to intuit someone's tone and intent by just reading their words on a screen. :smile: it's not always easy for me - sometimes we can mis-interpret the message someone's trying to get across by our own projections and we might react in what is perceived as an inappropriate manner. That's part of samsara, I guess. If anyone has perceived anything I've said as harmful or inappropriate, I apologize for any misunderstanding. Please know that my intentions were good, if, perhaps misguided at times. I also extend compassion and regret to those who, like me, may have perceived my reaction as inappropriate.

:namaste:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by newbie »

I'm not a nurse but I know this from school.
Morphine is to be taken if prescribed. It's the pain that debilitates otherwise.
The advice given is "Don't grind your teeth into being a hero when it's not necessary."
It doesn't come from me, I heard it and retained it.
"Also, because of my history of smoking and thus showing an obvious proclivity for addiction ..."
It's not the history of allergies, you're confusing the two of them.
Then regarding addiction, it's too early to worry, not at this stage when the tissues are not healed, LATER!
If you go Monday and say, "Hey doc, I'm doing whatever", how would that sound? Use common sense!
Go by the dr's advice and adapt your habits around the advice! It's not that difficult.
Serious issue is breathing rate. But since you've been taking the medication and did not stopped breathing, you know what to expect.
If there are adverse effects bothering you, don't wait to report them!

Now, you judge coffee which was used by monks to keep awake at services, prayers. Tea is the writer's stuff, but it is still a stimulent. As is nicotine.
As such, watch for balancing or coumpounded effect of your substances! Some depress the nervous system, some stimulate it.
I do not know how healing relates to painkillers, so you'll have to ask all your questions to a doctor/nurse.

By the way, I was and still am part of some nationals who have a lasting orthodox community in Cleveland.
And yes, these nationals are allowed to smoke in the basement of the church here in the city.
Back in the country ... different customs/rules, so the only help you'll find is within yourself.

If I helped, I'm glad, if I didn't, ignore this post! I did not speak as a buddhist.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Grigoris »

DGA wrote:This is something I never understood about cigarettes. why go through all that work and expense for something that doesn't even get you high or make you smarter or anything? It just makes you smell like an idiot and you have to pay for that.
Actually, initially, it does get you high. Really frakin' high! But your body gets used to it very quickly. Then you increase the dosage. Your body and brain continue to feel the effect but you become habituated to it, and don't notice it. Then you just smoke to stop withdrawal.

And this all happens really quickly, if you smoke regularly.

I distinctly remember the first time I deliberately inhaled cigarette smoke. Must have been around 7-8 years old when my uncle taught me how to smoke.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I distinctly remember the first time I deliberately inhaled cigarette smoke. Must have been around 7-8 years old when my uncle taught me how to smoke.
Ha, me too. I would have been 13 or 14, previous to that I was just holding it in my mouth, first time inhaled into my lungs I was like "wow, YES". But thrill quickly wore off and bam, 15 or so years of addiction.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

Re: newbie -

On the contrary, quite helpful! Thank you :smile:

I'm not quite sure what you mean by allergies vs. addiction, but if you could explain a little further it might be helpful. Perhaps you think my reaction to my medication was an allergic one? That's a possibility... I'm definitely not allergic to nicotine. it would have made quitting a lot easier! I have a sister-in-law who is quite allergic to tobacco smoke, and she is very careful not to be exposed to it.

When I was still a Catholic, I had the opportunity to attend some Orthodox services in the Christian community and Jewish services, though, admittedly, not Orthodox Judaism. The atmosphere and level of devotion was a very moving experience, and I honor your path and your devotion. :namaste: I'm assuming, since you mentioned "Church" you are in the Christian tradition. I'd love it if you would share some about your tradition, and how it relates to your spirituality - in a more appropriate thread than this one, of course! I'm not sure if there is an interfaith forum here (probably is, I'll have to check.) if not, we should drop a hint in the suggestion box ;)

BTW - I understand that your faith may have a different view on the subject, but in Buddhism, anyone of any faith can be a Buddhist and still follow their religious path. You may already know this, but I offer this in a spirit of inclusiveness :smile:

In fact, many deities from other faiths have been incorporated into Buddhism. Tara, for example, was venerated as a Goddess in the Hindu faith. I've even heard some Buddhist refer to Jesus Christ as a Bodhisattva, from their point of view, as is Tara from the Hindu faith.

When I was a Catholic, I knew of many nuns who also practiced Buddhism and found it not to be contrary to their faith. So, by all means, don't feel as if you are excluded from Buddhism because of your religious faith :namaste:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
DGA wrote:This is something I never understood about cigarettes. why go through all that work and expense for something that doesn't even get you high or make you smarter or anything? It just makes you smell like an idiot and you have to pay for that.
Actually, initially, it does get you high. Really frakin' high! But your body gets used to it very quickly. Then you increase the dosage. Your body and brain continue to feel the effect but you become habituated to it, and don't notice it. Then you just smoke just to stop withdrawal.

And this all happens really quickly, if you smoke regularly.

I distinctly remember the first time I deliberately inhaled cigarette smoke. Must have been around 7-8 years old when my uncle taught me how to smoke.
I was so inured to cigarettes smoke at first that I didn't get this reaction from tobacco until I smoked my first cigar.

Nobody told me you weren't supposed to inhale... :shock: :jawdrop: :rolleye:

Holy Crap!

:jumping:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by DGA »

:lol: Eighteen-year-old me was working at a warehouse on the night shift to pay for school, which I attended during the day. Skinny white kid surrounded by old grumpy men who liked to have fun with me. One night, one of these fellows decided to introduce me to dip. So I got a big fat pinch of Copenhagen in my lip... pleasant flavor actually... and I manage to spit exactly once before THE WORLD STARTS SPINNING AND I PUKE IN A TRASH CAN and had to go home for the night. Laughs all around. It was pretty funny, I admit.

Anyway, if that's a high, it must be the very worst high in the world.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by MindTheGap »

Oh, great googly-moogely! I tried dip once. I didn't have the same reaction, but I salivated so much it immediately spread throughout my entire mouth. I thought, "I know if I swallow this, I'm going to be violently ill..." So, I spit it out...

But, no! No matter how much I spit, I couldn't get it all out! I swished with water... It was stuck between my teeth!

Gaaah!!

:jawdrop:

It was so incredibly disgusting. :tongue:
And now, as long as space endures, As long as there are beings to be found,
May I continue, likewise, to remain, To drive away the sorrows of the world.

- Shantideva: Bodhicharyavatara

In this world there is no man, there is no woman. There is no person, self or consciousness.
Man and woman are merely imputed and have no essence. Thus, the minds of worldly beings are mistaken.

- Wisdom Moon: now known as the Bodhisattva Tara

When there arises a gap in the mind...

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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by newbie »

I started drinking my dad's reserve of black tea.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Suzy1974 »

I don't smoke so no comments there or on vaping (although I have curiosity about all the weird and wonderful devices, flavours :smile: :smile: )

However I recently stopped drinking caffeine and alcohol, I can tell you the caffeine withdraws symptoms were just so painful, days of headaches, tremors, depression, loss of appetite, I never knew how strong the addiction was. We are always conscious of the dangers arising from drink/drug/nicotine use, but I was truly shocked by the strong effects of caffeine on my physical body, and the suffering I caused myself.
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Re: Intoxicants - what is, what isn't?

Post by Herbie »

MindTheGap wrote:Whatcha think?
i wonder how you are feeling.
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