Automatic thoughts

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Malcolm wrote: It does not matter, such thoughts are like white and dark clouds in the sky. They come and they go.
The guy asked for help. That's not helpful--unless you're on the cusp of realization. At which point presumably you're not asking for advice on the Internet.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not. Most "thoughts" are neutral and are not necessarily thoughts of desire, hatred or ignorance. At least mine aren't. Your milage may vary.
Sorry. I meant "automatic thoughts" as defined in the original post, which were specifically negative. My bad.
zengen wrote:How do you deal with negative thoughts that just arise spontaneously without your control?

It does not matter, such thoughts are like white and dark clouds in the sky. They come and they go.

This brings me to an interesting question, how are thoughts like this differentiated from actual negative volitional impulses? I know they are quite different experientially, and are easy to tell apart, but how are these things explained traditionally? Is it just clinging that makes the difference?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

smcj wrote:Sorry. I meant "automatic thoughts" as defined in the original post, which were specifically negative. My bad.
I have automatic thoughts that are neutral and positive also. I placed emphasis on the negative thoughts because those are the thoughts troubling my conscience. But then again, I have many negative thoughts. As Malcom wrote, it's different for each individual, due to past habitual energy etc.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

zengen wrote: I have automatic thoughts that are neutral and positive also.
Of course you do.
I placed emphasis on the negative thoughts because those are the thoughts troubling my conscience. But then again, I have many negative thoughts.
You are correct to want to reduce them.
As Malcom wrote, it's different for each individual, due to past habitual energy etc.
We all have different karmas, so yes it is individual as to the specific habitual mental habits. But we are all the same in that we have a mixture of positive, neutral and negative mental habits. Reducing negative actions, negative communications and negative attitudes are basic Dharma goals.

The mind controls the body and speech, so if you purify your mind you purify all three. It is basic Dharma.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue May 24, 2016 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

smcj wrote:You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.
But don't we produce negative thoughts because of the kleshas?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

zengen wrote:
smcj wrote:You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.
But don't we produce negative thoughts because of the kleshas?
Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.

From Wiki:
Kleshas (Sanskrit: kleśa; Pali: kilesa; Standard Tibetan: nyon mongs,) in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, destructive emotions, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, mind poisons, etc.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

smcj wrote: Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.
Can you separate thought from feeling? Are those two the same? I would think feeling is more subtle than thought?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

Reason I ask is because the feeling of anger arises and then a thought of anger is produced. Can the feeling of anger be kleshas, not the thought?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

zengen wrote:
smcj wrote: Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.
Can you separate thought from feeling? Are those two the same? I would think feeling is more subtle than thought?
They are two sides of the same coin.
Reason I ask is because the feeling of anger arises and then a thought of anger is produced. Can the feeling of anger be kleshas, not the thought?
Karma ripens by causes and conditions coming together, both external and internal. So a guy cuts you off in traffic and you get mad. If you act out your anger you create karma. If not you have burned off some karma.
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Tue May 24, 2016 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

smcj wrote:
zengen wrote:
smcj wrote: Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.
Can you separate thought from feeling? Are those two the same? I would think feeling is more subtle than thought?
They are two sides of the same coin.
It may be. Mind is very tricky. Or feeling can be a very subtle thought that is usually undetected unless one meditates?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

zengen wrote:
smcj wrote:
zengen wrote: Can you separate thought from feeling? Are those two the same? I would think feeling is more subtle than thought?
They are two sides of the same coin.
It may be. Mind is very tricky. Or feeling can be a very subtle thought that is usually undetected unless one meditates?
In a basic sense things like "I feel x y or z" are not emotions, but conceptual thoughts. I've heard more than one teacher say there is no real difference between thought and emotion, but I have to admit I did not really get what they were aiming to convey with the statement, as there seems to be a distinction made in many other places.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: In a basic sense things like "I feel x y or z" are not emotions, but conceptual thoughts. I've heard more than one teacher say there is no real difference between thought and emotion, but I have to admit I did not really get what they were aiming to convey with the statement, as there seems to be a distinction made in many other places.
Emotion is a better word for feeling. When emotion arises, there is no internal self-dialogue. I think people generally associate thought with internal self-dialogue. I think internal self-dialogue can be course thought, while emotion is subtle?
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
muni
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by muni »

Intellect or discursive thoughts is of same nature as emotions.
At the other hand, there is here a useful guidance regarding thoughts and very much regarding feelings (subtle body) by Tsoknyi Rinpoche: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmEce-DxTYc

What is also interesting for me are words by Anna Freud. Anna says:
“Intellectualization protects against anxiety by repressing the emotions connected with an event." This means that we seek a solution by diving/swimming in discursive thoughts in order to "handle" emotions. I cannot see other than this is running in delusion by which the other delusion is temporary not experienced.

Anna says as well:
“I was always looking outside myself for strength and confidence but it comes from within. It is there all the time.”

Another one by Anna: "We are aware only of the empty space in the forest, which only yesterday was filled with trees."

Thoughts have no any other power than grasping to them gives them. They have no owner.
Last edited by muni on Tue May 24, 2016 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Malcolm
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by Malcolm »

smcj wrote:
zengen wrote:
smcj wrote:You guys do realize that "automatic thoughts" are more accurately called kleshas, right? And thus this question/problem is the most basic to all Dharma. Everything else comes later.
But don't we produce negative thoughts because of the kleshas?
Negative thoughts/feelings are kleshas.

From Wiki:
Kleshas (Sanskrit: kleśa; Pali: kilesa; Standard Tibetan: nyon mongs,) in Buddhism, are mental states that cloud the mind and manifest in unwholesome actions. Kleshas include states of mind such as anxiety, fear, anger, jealousy, desire, depression, etc. Contemporary translators use a variety of English words to translate the term kleshas, such as: afflictions, defilements, destructive emotions, disturbing emotions, negative emotions, mind poisons, etc.
No, in point of fact kleshas are mental factors, not minds. There are 26 altogether:

Six root unwholesome factors[edit]
The six root unwholesome factors (mūlakleśa) are:

Raga - attachment
Pratigha - anger
Avidya - ignorance
Māna - pride, conceit
Vicikitsa - doubt
Dṛiṣṭi - wrong view
Twenty secondary unwholesome factors[edit]
The twenty secondary unwholesome factors (upakleśa) are:

Krodha - rage, fury
Upanāha - resentment
Mrakśa - concealment, slyness-concealment
Pradāśa - spitefulness
Irshya - envy, jealousy
Mātsarya - stinginess, avarice, miserliness
Māyā - pretense, deceit
Śāṭhya - hypocrisy, dishonesty
Mada - self-infatuation, mental inflation, self-satisfaction
Vihiṃsā - malice, hostility, cruelty, intention to harm
Āhrīkya - lack of shame, lack of conscience, shamelessness
Anapatrāpya - lack of propriety, disregard, shamelessness
Styāna - lethargy, gloominess
Auddhatya - excitement, ebullience
Āśraddhya - lack of faith, lack of trust
Kausīdya - laziness, slothfulness
Pramāda - heedlessness, carelessness, unconcern
Muṣitasmṛtitā - forgetfulness
Asaṃprajanya - non-alertness, inattentiveness
Vikṣepa - distraction, desultoriness

These are things which color the mind, they are not themselves "thoughts."
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by pael »

Malcolm wrote:
Vicikitsa - doubt
Dṛiṣṭi - wrong view
"
What is antidote of doubt? Doubt of what? What is wrong view? Can you have it without thinking by words? What is antidote of wrong view?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

pael wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Vicikitsa - doubt
Dṛiṣṭi - wrong view
"
What is antidote of doubt? Doubt of what? What is wrong view? Can you have it without thinking by words? What is antidote of wrong view?
Yes, you can have it without thinking by words. It's subtle but you can recognize it if you meditate.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

Within the Abhidharma, the mental factors are categorized as formations (Sanskrit: saṅkhāra) concurrent with mind (Sanskrit: citta).
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
zengen
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by zengen »

pael wrote: What is antidote of doubt? Doubt of what?
Doubt of Buddha's teachings. For instance, a person may doubt the teaching of karma, reincarnation etc. The antidote is faith, but faith is not developed over night. Faith is developed through ongoing study and practice of Buddha's teachings.
pael wrote:What is wrong view? What is antidote of wrong view?
I would say views that do not accord with the middle way (e.g view of nihilism, eternalism etc). The antidote is to study Buddha's teachings.
There is no meaning to cyclic existence.
BuddhaFollower
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by BuddhaFollower »

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
No, they are not. Most "thoughts" are neutral and are not necessarily thoughts of desire, hatred or ignorance. At least mine aren't. Your milage may vary.
Sorry. I meant "automatic thoughts" as defined in the original post, which were specifically negative. My bad.
zengen wrote:How do you deal with negative thoughts that just arise spontaneously without your control?

It does not matter, such thoughts are like white and dark clouds in the sky. They come and they go.

:bow:
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
muni
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Re: Automatic thoughts

Post by muni »

Since in daily life we suffer due to holding onto feelings, emotions, then onto negative thinking...(I mean here not spontaneous negative thoughts).

E-motion leads to negative or positive thinking. Grasping and holding onto these emotions can lead then automatically to thinking and judging good-bad. Then holding onto these thoughts leads to action/karma by subject to object => ignorance. Different kleshas can have then play ground and so suffering.

Emotions need to be given space, vast space, certainly not grasping or holding onto them, not trying to satisfy them or avoiding them. Space. Then they lead not to more suffer in thoughts and action. Allow space, their power decrease……. fades. This giving space is an approach for daily life based on advice by Tsoknyi Rinpoche. Useful!

Faith, fully trust in the Enlightened Masters’ guidance is crucial. By dedication, doubts make no chance.
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