"The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

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tomschwarz
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"The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by tomschwarz »

Hello dear minds from beginningless time,

Here is "the flat truth" from Chogyam Trungpa la. Your thgouths?

"If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation. That’s the flat truth, the real truth. You should be able to understand what we are doing, particularly in terms of the teachings and the examples of the teachings that are transmitted through generations and generations. People have understood themselves, realized themselves, by the sitting practice of meditation." Glimpses of the Profound by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, page 216
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Grigoris
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Grigoris »

tomschwarz wrote:Hello dear minds from beginningless time,

Here is "the flat truth" from Chogyam Trungpa la. Your thgouths?

"If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation. That’s the flat truth, the real truth. You should be able to understand what we are doing, particularly in terms of the teachings and the examples of the teachings that are transmitted through generations and generations. People have understood themselves, realized themselves, by the sitting practice of meditation." Glimpses of the Profound by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, page 216
100% agreement from me.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Ayu
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Ayu »

There is nothing more simple than that. :smile:

But it reveals a great disadvantage of online fora: you cannot know about the amount and the quality of experience the people have who give you advices.
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Astus
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Astus »

tomschwarz wrote:"If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation.
What meditation? One can sit for a hundred years and not understand a thing. Even dying while seated is pointless. To see the truth of the Dharma takes only a single moment of insight of the nature of one's present experience.

Here are some illustrations:

O Śāriputra, you need not take this sitting [in meditation] to be sitting in repose. Sitting in repose is to not manifest body and mind in the triple world—this is sitting in repose. To generate the concentration of extinction while manifesting the deportments—this is sitting in repose. Not to relinquish the Dharma of enlightenment and yet manifest the affairs of [ordinary] sentient beings—this is sitting in repose. To have the mind neither abide internally nor locate itself externally—this is sitting in repose. To be unmoved by the [sixty-two mistaken] views yet cultivate the thirty-seven factors of enlightenment—this is sitting in repose. Not to eradicate the afflictions yet enter into nirvana—this is sitting in repose.
(Vimalakirti Sutra, ch 3, BDK Edition, p 85)

When that buddha was seated on the terrace of enlightenment after having defeated Māra’s army, he tried to obtain highest, complete enlightenment, yet the Dharma of the buddhas did not appear to him. In this way, even after having sat cross-legged for one to ten intermediate kalpas, undisturbed in body and mind, the Dharma of the buddhas still did not appear to him.
(Lotus Sutra, ch 7, BDK Edition, p 114-115)

A monk asked Koyo Seijo, "Daitsu Chisho Buddha sat in zazen for ten kalpas and could not attain Buddhahood. He did not become a Buddha. How could this be?"
Seijo said, "Your question is quite self-explanatory."
The monk asked, "He meditated so long; why could he not attain Buddhahood?"
Seijo said, "Because he did not become a Buddha."
(Gateless Gate, case 9)

During the Kai Yuan era of the Tang dynasty [713–41] there was a novice monk called Mazu Daoyi who constantly practiced Zen meditation upon Mt. Heng. Nanyue knew that Daoyi was a great vessel for the Dharma, and once walked up to him and said, “What does Your Worthiness intend to do by sitting in meditation?”
Mazu said, “I intend to become a buddha.”
Nanyue then picked up a piece of tile from the ground and began grinding it on a rock.
Daoyi then asked, “What are you trying to make by grinding that?”
Nanyue said, “I’m grinding it to make a mirror.”
Daoyi said, “How can you make a mirror by grinding a tile on a rock?”
Nanyue said, “If you can’t make a mirror by grinding a tile on a rock, how can you become a buddha by sitting in meditation?”
Daoyi said, “What is the correct way?”
Nanyue said, “It can be compared to an ox pulling a cart. If the cart doesn’t move, do you strike the cart or strike the ox?”
Daoyi didn’t answer.
Nanyue then said, “Are you sitting in order to practice Zen, or are you sitting to be a buddha? If you’re sitting to practice Zen, then know that Zen is not found in sitting or lying down. If you’re sitting to become a buddha, then know that Buddha has no fixed form. With respect to the constantly changing world, you should neither grasp it nor reject it. If you sit to become a buddha, you kill Buddha. If you grasp sitting form then you have not yet reached the meaning.”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 54)

Jiufeng served as Shishuang’s attendant. When Shishuang passed away, the congregation invited the head monk to become abbot.
Jiufeng said to the congregation, “First, he must show that he understood our late master’s great meaning, then he can become abbot.”
The head monk said, “What teaching do you mean?”
Jiufeng said, “Our late teacher said, ‘Desist! Become barren autumn ground! Have one thought for ten thousand years. Be a cold dead tree. Be an ancient incense dish. Be a blank strip of white silk.’ Not asking about the rest, what is a ‘strip of white silk’?”
The head monk said, “This teaching illuminates a matter of form.”
Jiufeng said, “Fundamentally, you don’t comprehend our late teacher’s meaning.”
The monk said, “You don’t approve of my answer? Then light a stick of incense, and if I don’t go before it is burned up, then you can say I don’t understand our late master’s meaning.”
A stick of incense was then lit, but before it burned down, the head monk died.
Shishuang patted the head monk’s body on the back and said, “Dying while sitting or passing away while standing isn’t it. You didn’t see our late master’s meaning even in your dreams.”
(Zen's Chinese Heritage, p 258-259)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Simon E.
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Simon E. »

Any consideration of statements apparently made by CTR should include the fact that CTR wrote nothing, apart from some of his poetry, and even then much of it is transliterated from tape recordings.
His words are often transliterations of talks given to specific groups on specific occasions.
In fact, often they are answers to questions posed by particular individuals who were his students.

Context is everything here.
CTR himself repeatedly warned of the dangers inherent in 'teachings' being lifted from their specific context and turned into generalised statements.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Herbie »

tomschwarz wrote:Hello dear minds from beginningless time,

Here is "the flat truth" from Chogyam Trungpa la. Your thgouths?
if you know it, don't talk about it. If you talk about it you don't know it.
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Ayu
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Ayu »

Simon E. wrote:Any consideration of statements apparently made by CTR should include the fact that CTR wrote nothing, apart from some of his poetry, and even then much of it is transliterated from tape recordings.
His words are often transliterations of talks given to specific groups on specific occasions.
In fact, often they are answers to questions posed by particular individuals who were his students.

Context is everything here.
CTR himself repeatedly warned of the dangers inherent in 'teachings' being lifted from their specific context and turned into generalised statements.
:good: :thanks:
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

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tomschwarz wrote: "If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation. That’s the flat truth, the real truth. You should be able to understand what we are doing, particularly in terms of the teachings and the examples of the teachings that are transmitted through generations and generations. People have understood themselves, realized themselves, by the sitting practice of meditation." Glimpses of the Profound by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, page 216
In general we have analytic and non-analytic meditation. Most of the meditation we practice will be analytic meditation through which we confirm the truth of the teachings intellectually. We also use introspection and contemplation in post meditation. The primary meditations to start with are the Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind, universal lovingkindness and compassion and the constant development of Bodhicitta.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by maybay »

Astus wrote:
tomschwarz wrote:"If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation.
What meditation? One can sit for a hundred years and not understand a thing. Even dying while seated is pointless. To see the truth of the Dharma takes only a single moment of insight of the nature of one's present experience.
One could ask what teachings? For understanding and realising teachings it is proper to speak of meditating on them. Be wary of self-deception.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Simon E. »

kirtu wrote:
tomschwarz wrote: "If you personally want to understand and realize the teachings, you will have no understanding at all if you don’t sit and practice meditation. That’s the flat truth, the real truth. You should be able to understand what we are doing, particularly in terms of the teachings and the examples of the teachings that are transmitted through generations and generations. People have understood themselves, realized themselves, by the sitting practice of meditation." Glimpses of the Profound by Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, page 216
In general we have analytic and non-analytic meditation. Most of the meditation we practice will be analytic meditation through which we confirm the truth of the teachings intellectually. We also use introspection and contemplation in post meditation. The primary meditations to start with are the Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind, universal lovingkindness and compassion and the constant development of Bodhicitta.

Kirt
This could be used to point out the problem of decontextualised statements.
The 'primary teachings' that you outline Kirt might well be accurately summarised by you. And they might be seen as primary by many teachers.
The slight dissonance comes in the fact they are attached to a statement by CTR..who never taught them per se.
Last edited by Simon E. on Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by dzogchungpa »

Simon E. wrote:
kirtu wrote:The primary meditations to start with are the Four Thoughts that Turn the Mind, universal lovingkindness and compassion and the constant development of Bodhicitta.

Kirt
This could be used to point out the problem of decontextualised statements.
The 'primary teachings' that you outline Kirt might well be accurately summarised by you. And they might be seen as primary by many teachers.
The slight dissonance comes in the fact they are attached to a statement by CTR..who never taught them per se.
Well, he definitely taught the four thoughts, see http://nalandatranslation.org/offerings ... reminders/and volume 3 of the Profound Treasury, and obviously he taught about loving-kindness, compassion and Bodhicitta, see e.g. "Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving-Kindness" and volume 2 of the Profound Treasury.

Here's an interesting passage from Bercholz's foreword to the Profound Treasury:
About one year before his passing, Trungpa Rinpoche invited me into his office at Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado (it was called Naropa Institute at that time). During this meeting, we discussed the plans for the publication of his future works. Although we discussed many topics, the two items that were stressed as being of the utmost impor­tance were the publication of his teachings on mind-training (published as Training the Mind and Cultivating Loving-Kindness) and the publication of his magnum opus, a three-volume set (the Profound Treasury) that was to be edited from the transcripts of the various seminaries that he had taught in North Amer­ica. He made me solemnly promise that I would do everything within my "publishing power” to fulfill his request.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Simon E. »

The 'per se' is key.
Should anyone conduct a poll among CTR's students they might want to ask those who attended teachings at Samye-ling, Boulder, or Gampo Abbey and ask whether they ever received overt teachings from CTR himself on the 4 thoughts. I certainly didn't.Which might just mean I wasn't there at that time of course.
You could start (begging his pardon) by asking ''Silent Bob' the only other student of CTR, as far as I know, who posts to this forum.

Of course Trungpa Rinpoche taught compassion and loving kindness.
But always indirectly. Always by what was inferred. He realised early on that the western mode of education was likely to lead to reification and concretisation of abstracts.

I think CTR was a highly effective teacher. But his teaching methods did not lend themselves to didactic representation. Which is one reason why his students like Pema Chodren do not attempt to emulate his teaching methods. They teach in a much more conventional way..and I am not referring to the more controversial aspects of his style of teaching.
Going back to the O.P. I think Tomschwartz has picked a rather difficult teacher to quote from.
But if it is useful ... :shrug:
Last edited by Simon E. on Sun Jun 05, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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maybay
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by maybay »

Well did he teach conventional/provisional/traditional teachings, or not? Of course he did. So it looks like you're just trying to put him in a box. A box made just for crazy yogis.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by Simon E. »

I don't believe he was a 'crazy yogi'. He was the sanest person I ever met.

But he didn't, in his own words, often teach ' the three of these and the four of those'. ..quote.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by muni »

But it reveals a great disadvantage of online fora: you cannot know about the amount and the quality of experience the people have who give you advices.
That's right.

We can only purify own perception and by that recognize “from where” the sharing comes, whether learned or simple nature.

Oh yes, and I remember H H Dalai Lama saying: “a suspicious mind is a very polluted mind”. In any case such state is not useful for our purification. Our own misperception is the one who is cheating us. :spy:
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Re: "The Flat Truth" by Chogyam Trungpa

Post by tomschwarz »

understood. so whether the quote/misquote is from/not from chogyam trungpa la, while interesting in the relative truth, is not so important in the ultimate truth. in buddhism, we accept that the relative truth is a truth or true, we also consider the relative truth to go hand in hand with the cause of suffering (see second noble truth). and also we believe that the ultimate truth goes hand in hand with the wisdom practice (wisdom of sameness, wisdom of discernment, wisdom of vastness of reality's expanse, wisdom of accomplishment, etc...) and that these wisdoms that characterize the ultimate truth bring happiness, where as the conceptual thinking of the relative truth often goes hand in hand with conflicted mental states.

in buddhism we believe that all sentient beings want happiness (strange but true). so with that said, what better way to manifest in our minds/hearts the ultimate truth and wisdom of the absolute truth (absolute wisdom) then seated meditation as described by kamalashilas middle steps of meditation? because in meditation (samathi) we seek to lessen the flow of conceptual thinking (as chogyam wrote (?), "say to yourself, 'thinking' an let it disappear") works for me....

thanks for the four thoughts! very good advice!!!
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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