Righteous anger?
Righteous anger?
I was talking to a Christian friend and he was asking about the mental poisons. He couldnt understand why anger was a mental poison. He said there was righteous anger and how could that be a poison? He gave me a scenario of for example if my sister was being raped would it be wrong to be angry at the person who raped her? He said there is nothing wrong with righteous anger. I did not know how with answer him about this. I know anger is a poison and that I dont know if it would be wrong if I were angry at a guy who raped my sister. Is there Righteous anger? If I waere to guess I would say no righteous anger is wrong as well.. Any kind of anger is negative and should be avoided.
- Kim O'Hara
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Re: Righteous anger?
Hi, Tirisilaex, and welcome to DW. Please drop over to Introductions and tell us about yourself, check out the ToS, al that stuff ...
About your question: IMO, anger always has negative effects - it's always a poison, in classical terms. It clouds our judgement and leads to poor choices. "Righteous Anger' is anger in the service of good intentions. It might energise us, but it's mixed karma at best. Compassion is a better source of energy.
In the example you give, intervening is not wrong but the anger is wrong.
Kim
About your question: IMO, anger always has negative effects - it's always a poison, in classical terms. It clouds our judgement and leads to poor choices. "Righteous Anger' is anger in the service of good intentions. It might energise us, but it's mixed karma at best. Compassion is a better source of energy.
In the example you give, intervening is not wrong but the anger is wrong.
Kim
Re: Righteous anger?
To me its not about not experiencing the emotion, but what you do as a consequence. Hunt the guy down and shoot him in the face while he begs for mercy and become a murderer yourself, or somehow use it as strength to help your sister, or something else.
I've heard AA speakers talk about how they handle themselves and their sobriety when the worst happens (and some of it is for-real worst)- a revenge killing may be as perilous as taking the first drink and would similarly remove the person from being able to support their loved one. AA tries to divide the emotions very clearly- anger is the emotional response in the instant (or in the short-term), resentment is the burning desire to get even. Acting from the latter is obviously poisonous.
For my part, thankfully I've never faced such an issue though from my own experience holding on to anger and forming a resentment about any subject is when I start getting in trouble. If I allow one resentment then pretty soon I have a bunch and bounce around between them making myself and all around me miserable.
I've heard AA speakers talk about how they handle themselves and their sobriety when the worst happens (and some of it is for-real worst)- a revenge killing may be as perilous as taking the first drink and would similarly remove the person from being able to support their loved one. AA tries to divide the emotions very clearly- anger is the emotional response in the instant (or in the short-term), resentment is the burning desire to get even. Acting from the latter is obviously poisonous.
For my part, thankfully I've never faced such an issue though from my own experience holding on to anger and forming a resentment about any subject is when I start getting in trouble. If I allow one resentment then pretty soon I have a bunch and bounce around between them making myself and all around me miserable.
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Re: Righteous anger?
Let me start by saying that if someone harmed someone I love, I'd be mad as hell and I'd probably do something about it. The only time that happened in my life to date I called the police.
Ok, so that being said, on to a more dispassionate discussion.
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When the previous Kalu R. was explaining the Mahakala puja (Mahakala being the wrathful aspect of the compassionate Chenrezig) he used the following analogy. He said it was like a mother that saw her child do something that could cause harm to itself, so she spanks her child. It is not that the child angered her, but that the only way she had to make the child understand what they did was harmful was to spank it. So with that as a motivation it is not true anger, but tough love.
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At a 12 step meeting I attended I met a woman that years ago had been kidnapped, raped, and infected with the AIDS virus. The disease had progressed so that all the cartilage in her body was degenerating and she was in constant pain. But she couldn't take strong pain meds because she had been a heroin addict, so she lived with the pain.
The man that had kidnapped and raped her went to prison for 20 years. She hated him of course. But since she was working a 12 step program she understood that her resentment against him was poisoning her life. So she got permission to go see him in prison and forgave him. He did not ask for forgiveness, and he certainly did not deserve it, but she forgave him because otherwise her anger would consume her life.
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HHDL has every right to be angry at the Chinese. He is passionate about the plight of his people, but I've never heard him express anger.
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The problem of "righteous anger" is that it is mostly self-righteous anger. "X is bad, so if I'm against X then I'm good, and I am justified in breaking the rules of decency morality." This shows up in even in public life. With a little thought you can see it at play in the current U.S. political dynamic. I believe there are currently international conflicts where one or both sides think that way.
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But back to what I was saying at the start; if I had to act to protect someone I love I would do so.
So I guess I really don't have a consistent position on any of this.
Ok, so that being said, on to a more dispassionate discussion.
*************************************************************
When the previous Kalu R. was explaining the Mahakala puja (Mahakala being the wrathful aspect of the compassionate Chenrezig) he used the following analogy. He said it was like a mother that saw her child do something that could cause harm to itself, so she spanks her child. It is not that the child angered her, but that the only way she had to make the child understand what they did was harmful was to spank it. So with that as a motivation it is not true anger, but tough love.
*************************************************************
At a 12 step meeting I attended I met a woman that years ago had been kidnapped, raped, and infected with the AIDS virus. The disease had progressed so that all the cartilage in her body was degenerating and she was in constant pain. But she couldn't take strong pain meds because she had been a heroin addict, so she lived with the pain.
The man that had kidnapped and raped her went to prison for 20 years. She hated him of course. But since she was working a 12 step program she understood that her resentment against him was poisoning her life. So she got permission to go see him in prison and forgave him. He did not ask for forgiveness, and he certainly did not deserve it, but she forgave him because otherwise her anger would consume her life.
*************************************************************
HHDL has every right to be angry at the Chinese. He is passionate about the plight of his people, but I've never heard him express anger.
*************************************************************
The problem of "righteous anger" is that it is mostly self-righteous anger. "X is bad, so if I'm against X then I'm good, and I am justified in breaking the rules of decency morality." This shows up in even in public life. With a little thought you can see it at play in the current U.S. political dynamic. I believe there are currently international conflicts where one or both sides think that way.
*************************************************************
But back to what I was saying at the start; if I had to act to protect someone I love I would do so.
So I guess I really don't have a consistent position on any of this.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Righteous anger?
In abstract religious terms, sure, but anger evolved in our species for a reason. It must serve some practical function.Kim O'Hara wrote:Compassion is a better source of energy.
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Righteous anger?
Just ask him what good anger would do him in that situation. A lot of people connect anger and justice, but justice is supposed to be about better outcomes for individuals and societies, not satisfaction.Tirisilex wrote:I was talking to a Christian friend and he was asking about the mental poisons. He couldnt understand why anger was a mental poison. He said there was righteous anger and how could that be a poison? He gave me a scenario of for example if my sister was being raped would it be wrong to be angry at the person who raped her? He said there is nothing wrong with righteous anger. I did not know how with answer him about this. I know anger is a poison and that I dont know if it would be wrong if I were angry at a guy who raped my sister. Is there Righteous anger? If I waere to guess I would say no righteous anger is wrong as well.. Any kind of anger is negative and should be avoided.
Wishing for his sister to suffer less, wishing for other people not to be raped, wishing to prevent the rapist from raping again. Any of those are possible permutations, but none needs to have anything to do with anger. in facet, anger obscures clear thinking when trying to work for others benefit.
It wouldn't be "wrong" to be angry about anything, it would be quite expected.. the part that would be wrong is to be so utterly unaware of your anger that IT was running the show, and overriding concern for others welfare, as an example.
BTW a family member of mine was home-invasion raped, you what good all my anger did? Squat...anger is useless and has nothing to do with solving problems. Your friends is confused in that he thinks anger can somehow spur good deeds, it can't, you can do good deeds and improve outcomes of situations in spite of anger, but not because of it.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
- Kim O'Hara
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Re: Righteous anger?
I would argue that compassion is also a better source of energy in practical terms, since it leads to more skillful responses.boda wrote:In abstract religious terms, sure, but anger evolved in our species for a reason. It must serve some practical function.Kim O'Hara wrote:Compassion is a better source of energy.
As for anger, I'm sure it didn't evolve "in our species" at all but is something our ancestors inherited from their ancestors - maybe as far back as the dinosaurs, maybe way earlier than that - which weren't capable of higher-order thinking. If you look around (and inside) yourself, you will find lots of physical and psychological elements which are less-than-ideal vestiges of formerly crucial body parts (e.g. the appendix). IMO, anger is one of them.
Kim
Re: Righteous anger?
No, not necessarily. A skillful person can skillfully manage their anger while utilizing the energy it provides. An unskillful person can worsen a situation with so called "idiot compassion." And I'm not sure what you mean by compassion as a source of energy. Compassion is peaceful and calming, autonomically speaking.Kim O'Hara wrote:I would argue that compassion is also a better source of energy in practical terms, since it leads to more skillful responses.boda wrote:In abstract religious terms, sure, but anger evolved in our species for a reason. It must serve some practical function.Kim O'Hara wrote:Compassion is a better source of energy.
This is completely illogical. Every part of our species evolved from previous forms. Even our cerebral cortex is only and extension of older parts of the brain, and is inextricably part of.As for anger, I'm sure it didn't evolve "in our species" at all but is something our ancestors inherited from their ancestors - maybe as far back as the dinosaurs, maybe way earlier than that - which weren't capable of higher-order thinking.
From wiki:If you look around (and inside) yourself, you will find lots of physical and psychological elements which are less-than-ideal vestiges of formerly crucial body parts (e.g. the appendix). IMO, anger is one of them.
You learn something new everyday.Research performed at Winthrop University-Hospital showed that individuals without an appendix were four times more likely to have a recurrence of Clostridium difficile colitis. The appendix, therefore, may act as a "safe house" for commensal ("good") bacteria. This reservoir of gut flora could then serve to repopulate the digestive system following a bout of dysentery or cholera.
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Re: Righteous anger?
Because Christianity was such a successful religion, and massive amounts of people in the modern world come from Christian backgrounds, it is highly vulnerable to heresy.
People get into a sort of faulty thought process that goes something like this:
"Me and my family are Christian" (nominally)
"Me and my family and community believe X or Y"
"Therefore X or Y is a Christian value"
A similar breakdown of orthodoxy happens to all religions that have excessive state power and "official" societal prestige. People confuse "beliefs held by people who identity with X religion" with "beliefs encouraged by X religion".
Plenty of Christians believe it is ok to have righteous anger, doesn't mean Christ taught that anger is a good thing, righteous or not.
I am sure there are plenty of examples of this in Buddhism we can think of too.
People get into a sort of faulty thought process that goes something like this:
"Me and my family are Christian" (nominally)
"Me and my family and community believe X or Y"
"Therefore X or Y is a Christian value"
A similar breakdown of orthodoxy happens to all religions that have excessive state power and "official" societal prestige. People confuse "beliefs held by people who identity with X religion" with "beliefs encouraged by X religion".
Plenty of Christians believe it is ok to have righteous anger, doesn't mean Christ taught that anger is a good thing, righteous or not.
I am sure there are plenty of examples of this in Buddhism we can think of too.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?
The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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Re: Righteous anger?
Its possible to find cases of enlightened beings that experience anger and some that can be quite terrible. take for example Marpa, the teacher of Milarepa who was a very great saint in Buddhism. His Holiness the Dalai Lama is also said to have a temper. When an enlightened being is angry it is as though s/he was not angry. in such cases anger can be very constructive.
in the Philokalia, an Orthodox Christian guide to mysticism, Anger is sometimes seen to be effective in dealing with negative thought life. the practitioner becoming mindful of a negative feeling or thought exposes it to his indignation. this usually works, but not always. personally I favour the Buddhist practice of mindfulness to the Christian practice of watchfulness because it requires less effort.
in mindfulness a thought or feeling is simply observed with a feeling of acceptance. the thought is not hated or rejected. it is just observed and accepted. in watchfulness a thought is given to Jesus through the Jesus prayer (Lord Jesus Christ son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner) and is rejected, sometimes with anger. in my experience this does not work effectively. it creates tension, tiredness, discord and feelings of self rejection. especially when a thought is thought to be ones own.
for non enlightened beings its best to learn to deal with anger. some would say: be with the anger, feel it, know it, but don't repress it. take yourself away from the situation that angers you and try to understand it. don't try to get rid of it. analyse it, become an expert on the feeling, but don't fight it... question it... why are you angry? how angry are you? my God this is anger! understanding call really help. its also worth knowing that anger is an element of love. without love there can be no anger. it is because you love yourself or people, or have respected someone that you may feel anger at a perceived injustice. if theres no anger there may be no love and so recognise that it has a role to play.
one of the problems with anger is that the more you express it the worse it gets. try not to express anger in a harmful way, but instead express it by doing something helpful that you wouldn't normally do. bake a loaf of bread for the person you are angry with or say prayers for them. it can help to share with someone that you are angry in order to get the situation into perspective.
to feel angry with yourself or negative thoughts and feelings is not skillful, unless you are a wrathful Buddha where anger is merely a weapon for destroying ignorance. The Christian monks (Hezychasts and Coenobites), some who practiced wrathful mindfulness in the desert knew that it could be dangerous. and so I would say... approach anger with care. it can burn: best to know how to live with it and manage it. this comes with time. meditation will help and mindfulness. to learn to recognise certain impulses and feelings as indicative of negative spiritual energies as they begin to arise in ones thoughts and feelings is very helpful in managing ones life. you can mix mindfulness with prayer, by offering God or Buddha to take all the negative impulses that enter you at the moment you become mindful of them. this is a strong way in the beginning of letting go of angry and unhelpful thoughts. later on it does not matter whether or not the impulses are dealt with, most of them just fizzle away when you become mindful of them and letting go becomes easier.
hope this is helpful.
kind regards, Tom.
in the Philokalia, an Orthodox Christian guide to mysticism, Anger is sometimes seen to be effective in dealing with negative thought life. the practitioner becoming mindful of a negative feeling or thought exposes it to his indignation. this usually works, but not always. personally I favour the Buddhist practice of mindfulness to the Christian practice of watchfulness because it requires less effort.
in mindfulness a thought or feeling is simply observed with a feeling of acceptance. the thought is not hated or rejected. it is just observed and accepted. in watchfulness a thought is given to Jesus through the Jesus prayer (Lord Jesus Christ son of the Living God, have mercy on me a sinner) and is rejected, sometimes with anger. in my experience this does not work effectively. it creates tension, tiredness, discord and feelings of self rejection. especially when a thought is thought to be ones own.
for non enlightened beings its best to learn to deal with anger. some would say: be with the anger, feel it, know it, but don't repress it. take yourself away from the situation that angers you and try to understand it. don't try to get rid of it. analyse it, become an expert on the feeling, but don't fight it... question it... why are you angry? how angry are you? my God this is anger! understanding call really help. its also worth knowing that anger is an element of love. without love there can be no anger. it is because you love yourself or people, or have respected someone that you may feel anger at a perceived injustice. if theres no anger there may be no love and so recognise that it has a role to play.
one of the problems with anger is that the more you express it the worse it gets. try not to express anger in a harmful way, but instead express it by doing something helpful that you wouldn't normally do. bake a loaf of bread for the person you are angry with or say prayers for them. it can help to share with someone that you are angry in order to get the situation into perspective.
to feel angry with yourself or negative thoughts and feelings is not skillful, unless you are a wrathful Buddha where anger is merely a weapon for destroying ignorance. The Christian monks (Hezychasts and Coenobites), some who practiced wrathful mindfulness in the desert knew that it could be dangerous. and so I would say... approach anger with care. it can burn: best to know how to live with it and manage it. this comes with time. meditation will help and mindfulness. to learn to recognise certain impulses and feelings as indicative of negative spiritual energies as they begin to arise in ones thoughts and feelings is very helpful in managing ones life. you can mix mindfulness with prayer, by offering God or Buddha to take all the negative impulses that enter you at the moment you become mindful of them. this is a strong way in the beginning of letting go of angry and unhelpful thoughts. later on it does not matter whether or not the impulses are dealt with, most of them just fizzle away when you become mindful of them and letting go becomes easier.
hope this is helpful.
kind regards, Tom.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.