How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
White Lotus
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by White Lotus »

personal mind, self, spirit and body are dropped deliberately by vows, wishes & intention. personal "consciousness" just drops.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Dan74
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Dan74 »

tomamundsen wrote:
Dan74 wrote: Saying 'renunciation is internal' is easy. Doing it without actually giving up things is virtually impossible.
Now, I've never been an ordained monk. But I did have few months experience living the lifestyle in a monastery. I think internal renunciation is still hard for monks with pratimoksha vows. Renouncing externally probably does make it a little easier, but maybe not as much as some think. It's quite natural to want things we don't have, meanwhile it's easy to see the defects of Samsara while we are knee-deep in it.
Yes, I see it in a similar way. Mind you being knee-deep in Samsara and its defects, we become quite addicted to both, as well as to struggling with them. There is a real benefit to renunciation and seclusion when done largely for the right reasons. And I think that answers Simon's caveats.
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Grigoris
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Grigoris »

anjali wrote:As far as I can tell, the only path to realization is to "renounce" self-grasping. All other types of renunciation are secondary.
Oh, is that all! Well that's easy then. :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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muni
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by muni »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
anjali wrote:As far as I can tell, the only path to realization is to "renounce" self-grasping. All other types of renunciation are secondary.
Oh, is that all! Well that's easy then. :smile:
lol.
Herbie
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Herbie »

How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
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Grigoris
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Grigoris »

Herbie wrote:
How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Non-involvement, huh? So, please tell me how one can become "non-involved" with, let's say: food. How do you become non-involved with that phenomenon given you require it for sustenance of the body?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
shaunc
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by shaunc »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Herbie wrote:
How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Non-involvement, huh? So, please tell me how one can become "non-involved" with, let's say: food. How do you become non-involved with that phenomenon given you require it for sustenance of the body?
My guess would be by following the middle path.
By that what I mean is that everyone has to eat a certain amount to sustain a healthy body, but you don't need to be a greedy guts or continually be thinking about your next meal. To me that's probably about as close to renunciation of food as you are likely to get.
Simon E.
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Simon E. »

Herbie wrote:
How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Unless I am mistaken you have frequently stated that you are not a Buddhist.
So why do you hold any opinion on the matter? And why should anyone care what it is?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Grigoris
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Grigoris »

shaunc wrote:My guess would be by following the middle path.
By that what I mean is that everyone has to eat a certain amount to sustain a healthy body, but you don't need to be a greedy guts or continually be thinking about your next meal. To me that's probably about as close to renunciation of food as you are likely to get.
I wouldn't call that "non-involvement" , or "renunciation", I would consider that a type of healthy involvement.

Having functioning sensory organs makes it virtually impossible to not become involved with phenomena unless we just ignore them and go into a dull, passive, vegetative state. But what would be the value in that? Anyway, phenomena are nothing other than expressions of the Dharmakaya, so why not be aware of them?
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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muni
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by muni »

No any appearance is binding us, but our craving/clinging is binding us.
Clinging/craving can be very subtle in Buddhism. ( clinging to tradition, masters, methods, fellows...)
White Lotus
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by White Lotus »

clinging and craving are enlightened in a buddha. there is really no one any longer who does this clinging, only biology. :pig:
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

White Lotus wrote:clinging and craving are enlightened in a buddha. there is really no one any longer who does this clinging, only biology. :pig:
Well, yeah. But I suspect all the Buddhas reading this thread knew that already.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
White Lotus
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by White Lotus »

a buddha doesnt know the details. he knows everything: emptiness of emptiness. this. no one knows. presumption?
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
Herbie
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Herbie »

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Herbie wrote:
How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Non-involvement, huh? So, please tell me how one can become "non-involved" with, let's say: food. How do you become non-involved with that phenomenon given you require it for sustenance of the body?
why should one become involved?
Herbie
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Herbie »

Simon E. wrote:
Herbie wrote:
How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?
Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Unless I am mistaken you have frequently stated that you are not a Buddhist.
So why do you hold any opinion on the matter?
Due to being psycho-philosophically interested in the matter.
Simon E. wrote: And why should anyone care what it is?
There is no need to get involved.
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Grigoris
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Grigoris »

Herbie wrote:why should one become involved?
Because otherwise one would die of starvation. Pretty simple, isn't it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Simon E.
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Simon E. »

Herbie wrote:
Simon E. wrote:
Herbie wrote: Simply applying the wisdom of the middle way entails renouncing all phenomena. Renunciation is non-involvment.
Unless I am mistaken you have frequently stated that you are not a Buddhist.
So why do you hold any opinion on the matter?
Due to being psycho-philosophically interested in the matter.
Simon E. wrote: And why should anyone care what it is?
There is no need to get involved.

So no one should...OK. Done.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Jeff H
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Jeff H »

How are people using the term "involved" here? If involved means simply to do it, then eating food is involvement. But if involved means being attached, then that can be observed and progressively reduced.

I think attachment is well illustrated in the example of "love". In conventional society attachment and love are conflated, but in Buddhist teachings they are polar opposites. It is common to feel that we "must have", "can't live without", "depend upon" someone that we claim to love. But in reality, attachment is all about my self whereas love is all about the other.

The challenge of striving to live the Dharma is to be able to recognize the difference, distinguish between the attachment and love that we experience, and then reduce the one and increase the other. We can't practice Dharma without eating, but to practice Dharma implies that we are trying to be less attached to (i.e. involved with) our eating habits. In my opinion, that's how renunciation starts and grows.
Where now is my mind engaged? - Shantideva
Simon E.
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Simon E. »

Au contraire.

Detachment from food means to be completely present in the eating. In the taste. In the texture. In the pleasure. Then doing the next thing.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: How do you renounce everything to attain Nirvana?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Thai monks eat whatever is put into their bowls and only eat before noon.

I'm here at a Kagyu monastery and there are prayers before meals and after meals. At the end of the meal they pass around some small pieces of bread that you are to compress in your left hand and give back as an offering to the hungry ghosts. Then there are the temporary fasts of all food and water for 24 hours.

So the traditions do try to address the issue without staving people to death.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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