Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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tomschwarz
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Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by tomschwarz »

hello brothers and sisters,

of course the absolute truth does not exclude painful things that do exist/ or in their illusion of existence, do cause suffering, which exists. but the energy that comes from fighting, trying to defeat another being through strength, speed, trickery, absorption of their strength, is that not antithetical to progress on the path of the 4th noble truth: Path of Accumulation, Path of Preparation, Path of Seeing, Path of Meditation, and Path of No More Learning ?

of course, nothing is absolutely true ))) (that i write), so surely there are exceptions, where fighting is actually good on the path. but in my life, I have not ever found that. have you? like, maybe you got something "off your chest"? and that catharsis somehow helped others as well, in its sheer honesty? Or maybe you kill one person, and save him/her from killing 1000 people? just guessing, again, not my experience. i only know things that are like silence, acceptance, warm-hearted caring, disappearing/loosing self/self-centered perspective, reappearing as consumed by another/within their suffering, etc... but fighting? works too for Buddhist goals?

Sentient Light wrote:
Rishin wrote:
That begs the question of proper development of target acquisition and power during training. Not to mention distancing, timing, appropriate use of force for a given situation, and a whole host of other things.

There's a lot in your comment I could go into but I think it would be too far off topic so I shall leave it.
Do we have a kung fu thread? I think this sort of stuff can be interesting to discuss, particularly as it pertains to Buddhism. My father is a võ sư in Võ Bình Định and was even a combat instructor in the South Vietnamese military; kung fu as it pertains to Buddhism is really interesting to me, especially as more and more of my dharma practice is combined with my martial arts practice, and seeing the example my father set in that regard.
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Such a puritanical question. Generally..yes you can do martial arts and be a Buddhist unless you are on a seriously renunciation-based path. Many people actually lose their taste for dominating others through martial arts practice, believe it or not. I know of at least two people other than me on this forum who can likely attest to that.

If you are on renunciate path then of course, no, by definition it is likely not something your practice will handle well.

Also martial arts are not "fighting", fighting is a particular category that implies a consensual bout, some martial arts do this, others do not. This act also ("fighting") is easily discernible as quite different from actually predatory violence, both physically and emotionally - a fact which anyone who has studied violence at all knows well.

Can you be a Buddhist and be that judgemental about something you have little to no knowledge of? Perhaps that's a better question to look into.
but in my life, I have not ever found that. have you?
Have you been in a lot of fights? Have any experience with predatory violence? have serious martial arts training? Or are you just spinning going off about something you have no knowledge of at all, and patronizingly putting down others in the process?

Get off your high horse, I think that'd be the "Buddhist" thing to do, for what it's worth. For the record, From my point of view a lot of the passive aggressive judgement that shows up in your posts is antithetical to the kind of flexibility and liberality towards others that most Buddhist vehicles strive for..YMMV.
just guessing, again, not my experience
Perhaps you should inform yourself better before guessing about the kleshas of others, that would likely be the "Buddhist" thing to do.
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Aemilius
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Aemilius »

The unavoidable and necessary use of violence in a society comes up in the Mahaparinirvana sutra, it is somewhere in the early chapters, it says something to the effect that true bodhisattva-upasakas don't even take the first precept,...
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They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

Unless you took vows in hinayana style then I think you can fight. Through martial arts you can protect others from being harmed and also protect the attacker from harming others and accumulating bad actions. But naturaly I believe there are some restrictions to this such as not using force unless it is the only way, only using as much force as is needed to stop the attack and others, but I am sure that you already know all of that. :-) Maybe you would enjoy reading some books by Ole Nydahl as he sometimes mentions this.
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that becomes suffering indeed.

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Soma999
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Soma999 »

Martial arts can help direct energy and overcome violence. My martial art teacher helped psychotic child also.

It also help to develop will, energy, it's good for the mind from my point of view, and also for the body.

The negative thing is that sometime people try to hard, and then they lose their health. Normaly, from my point of view, a good martial art improve health, both mentaly and physicaly. But what we see is that some people after a certain amount of years lose their health and have to stop. Too bad. Their training do not respect the harmony of the body.

Martial art is very vast. Look for exemple to Uesihiba who founded Aikido. It's very spiritual at the roots of the arts. He transformed the traditional (me against you) into (us against division). He spoke a lot about love.
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by AlexMcLeod »

The main point of buddhist martial arts is to be so much better than an aggressor that you can subdue them or divert them from harming others while doing as little harm to them as possible, and also taking no damage yourself.

That is why the Shaolin developed arts like chin na and dan xue.
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There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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tomschwarz
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by tomschwarz »

AlexMcLeod wrote:The main point of buddhist martial arts is to be so much better than an aggressor that you can subdue them or divert them from harming others while doing as little harm to them as possible, and also taking no damage yourself.

That is why the Shaolin developed arts like chin na and dan xue.
very interesting alex. and it sounds logical. but how do you reconcile ideas like "be so much better than an aggressor" with ideas like
Sonna Sutra wrote:When any ascetics and brahmins, on the basis of feeling … on the basis of perception … on the basis of volitional formations … on the basis of consciousness—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from not seeing things as they really are?
as i understand it, this section of the sutta is introducing the wisdom of sameness. like you and me, neither is better or worse, and yet we are not equal. does the kung fu buddhism that you practice have a focus on the wisdom of sameness (natural transformation of pride)? do other martial arts (karate, judo, tai kwan do, mai tai, kickboxing, wing chun, jiu-jitsu, etc...) have a connection with buddhism, or just kung fu? are there sutra or vajrayana references about the importance of fighting, or martial arts in general?

as johnny guessed, i have no clue about how fighting and buddhism go together. i am a 48 year old man, light skinned, from chicago's south side, so i do have deep experience with violence. but i see nothing in that conflict that relates to the practice of buddhism, other than motivation to practice ethics, meditation and wisdom. yet, i do respect what you are saying alex, subduing an agressor with no harm to you or them is a great accomplishment. but in my experiences, on chicago's south side, there is no way of doing this sort of thing. i mean, it is possible like in a bruce lee film, yes. but a lot of those poor, disenfranchised people on chicago's south side, carry guns and are deeply angry, racist and ruthless. more than 2000 were already shot there this year, over 500 killed http://heyjackass.com/. so i respect your position sincerely and your intention. but i do not think that it is workable in my experience.

then there is this kung fu fighting. can we agree that this is not buddhist practice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXUgosXQV70
i dedicate this post to your happiness, the causes of your happiness, the absence of your suffering the causes of the absence of your suffering that we may not have too much attachment nor aversion. SAMAYAMANUPALAYA
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Sentient Light »

tomschwarz wrote:hello brothers and sisters,

of course the absolute truth does not exclude painful things that do exist/ or in their illusion of existence, do cause suffering, which exists. but the energy that comes from fighting, trying to defeat another being through strength, speed, trickery, absorption of their strength, is that not antithetical to progress on the path of the 4th noble truth?
Kung fu is not about defeating another being. It is not about being stronger or faster. It is not about one dominating and one submitting. Kung fu is about discipline and effort. It is about honing the body as a support for clarity of mind and insight into emptiness. And, in particular, Buddhist kung fu is about protecting the Sangha and preserving the Dharma. But the most important thing is the Way itself, about the practice and how it transforms the mind over time.
tomschwarz wrote:surely there are exceptions, where fighting is actually good on the path. but in my life, I have not ever found that. have you?
Fighting is never "good," but it can be skillful or it can be unskillful. A bodhisattva has devoted their body-mind aggregate to the benefit of others, to the alleviation of suffering. Some of us will rightly abstain from any scenarios that result in violence because of this, and that is noble. Some of us will rightly jump into situations in order to defend and protect beings from harm that would befall them due to the ignorance of other beings, and this is also noble. The point, with kung fu, is that there is no aggression, only an empty and compassionate mind. With clear sight, one knows the skillful means to end an altercation with the least amount of suffering. Sometimes, beings--due to their ignorance--may require a stern response in order to keep them from hurting others, the way you might scold a dog that is getting too aggressive, but whom you know will behave with proper disciplining.
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Sentient Light »

tomschwarz wrote:
then there is this kung fu fighting. can we agree that this is not buddhist practice? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXUgosXQV70
Do not conflate combat sports with kung fu. That is a competitive athlete, not a Shaolin monk (he claims to be a monk, or have been a monk, but if you look into those claims, there is no record of his monasticism anywhere... there is also no clear indication that he ever studied even as a lay person in Dengfeng... so he's an athlete and it's a marketing thing). Combat sports are entertainment. Training in combat sports is an athletic pursuit. No rational person would look at that fighter and think he, in any way, actually represents Buddhism or Buddhist practice in any way. Nor should anyone think he represents kung fu. Combat sports and martial arts are two different things, with marginal overlap.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

as i understand it, this section of the sutta is introducing the wisdom of sameness. like you and me, neither is better or worse, and yet we are not equal. does the kung fu buddhism that you practice have a focus on the wisdom of sameness (natural transformation of pride)? do other martial arts (karate, judo, tai kwan do, mai tai, kickboxing, wing chun, jiu-jitsu, etc...) have a connection with buddhism, or just kung fu? are there sutra or vajrayana references about the importance of fighting, or martial arts in general?
Traditionally Karate has a connection to Zen Buddhism, Taoism, and a bit of Confucianism. The same is true most most things labelled "Kung Fu"..Taiji and the other internal arts are more directly connected to Taoism. I first learned to meditate in Karate, where there was a short period of Zazen beginning each class, and bowed to a picture of Bodhidharma. In fact, it is what got me initially interested in Dharma. In Judo, you learn the philosophy of mutual welfare and benefit:
As to the moral phase of judo, – not to speak of the discipline of the exercise room involving the observance of the regular rules of etiquette, courage, and perseverance, kindness to and respect for others, impartiality and fair play so much emphasized in Western athletic training, – judo has special importance in Japan...
There are some real moral issues IMO with combat sport mainly because it is often economically exploitative, but the idea that it is "violence" is frankly kind of silly. If you have seen violence as you say you have, you should be able to discern the difference, particularly in terms of intent.

Really, I think you are just moralizing.
references about the importance of fighting, or martial arts in general?
Can you define what you mean by "fighting"? I don't think you even have a clear picture of what you are objecting to.
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Grigoris »

Miroku wrote:Unless you took vows in hinayana style then I think you can fight.
Go check your Bodhisattva vows, I think you will find prohibitions against carrying weapons and other stuff, for example.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

To jump into it a bit more:

It might actually be Tom that you could not participate in these activities without developing unwholesome tendencies, but that's not so for everyone. It's all about what we have the capacity for. I spent a number of years strictly observing the Fifth precept before developing the ability to occasionally have a drink with no repercussions. If I slip up I'll go back to stringent observance of it. Rules which are about avoiding certain actions exist specifically for situations where we require them. If your Buddhist practice is based primarily on avoiding certain conduct, then that's what you should do...but it is by no means the only way to see things or to practice Dharma. Frankly, if you are involved in the Tibetan traditions particularly you ought to know this - or at least ask your teacher what they think about it.

So some people can enter into martial arts and develop fantasies about violence, possibly even violent behavior, though in my experience these people are not that common. Funnily enough, many people I've known who train in martial arts long term already had a karmic predisposition to conflict, or at least a preoccupation with avoiding conflict - fear of it - and believe it or not martial arts training helped to manage it, and in some cases even transform it into very positive circumstances.

Taking a common example:

Inner city boxing clubs have a well-known reputation for getting kids out of unhealthy activities, teaching basic civic values, etc.. Conflating this with an encouragement of violence is ignorant in the extreme, it's the sort of thing I expect from the arch-liberal hippie community I live in, but it has no place in reality, from my point of view. I have experienced both actual predatory violence (muggings, real beat-downs etc.) and participated in combat sport..sorry, they are worlds apart, there is no comparison for the participant. The only way for someone to think of them as the same thing is to be ignorant of them.

When I was training Judo I saw kids with terrible, angry attitudes and no interest in anything be transformed into seemingly different people just in a month's time. There were tears involved the first time they lost, and I imagine there were a few who could not handle it, but for others the general attitude they adopted was so much more respectful, calm, and reasonable.

Like I said, it's all about people's capacity...for some people indeed these things might increase people's violent tendencies, make them feel unnecessarily traumatized, etc. Those people should find different pursuits.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by Rishin »

Awesome thread. :twothumbsup:

As has already been mentioned there are a few overlapping areas as far as martial arts, fighting, and self defence are concerned.

Martial arts do not necessarily equate with self defence, and fighting can cover a whole range of situations.

From a self defence perspective there is a lot to consider. Should you act? Can you act? What about repercussions be they physical, mental or legal?

Martial arts can have a number of purposes. Many of the older ones being combatively focussed and the newer ones having a more popular appeal and usage, certainly as far as pre and post Meji Japanese systems go.

Fighting for the purposes of this post is an agreed bout between two, or I suppose more, people. It is consensual violence, that can of course crosses over into the realm of combat sports and the like.

So as you can see that's a wide range of situations that can be examined. Personally I think self defence is where a lot of attention should be placed because ultimately it is a situation that is forced upon you. If you are relying on physical skills at that time then all of your other skills have either failed or haven't been appropriate, I'm thinking there of the difference between applying something like verbal skills in a situation that's fired by social dominance compared to that of a predatory assault.

How can we apply dharma to all of this? For me compassion should be a driving force but we must understand that we won't always have the luxury of exercising such compassion or even the capability. Violence is messy and damn frightening it's not something we will always get the chance to skillfully avoid via fancy take downs or technqiues that are every present in many of the overly romantic notions some people hold about their arts or abilities.

To my mind a better understanding of what is likely to happen to you, the HAOV (Habitual Acts of Violence) you are likely to encounter, the ethical dilemma you will face, and how you respond under pressure will go a long way in enabling you to act appropriately when faced with the potential of having your teeth kicked in.

Many martial arts have connections to Buddhism to one degree or another and this connection is often shapped due to cultural and even political contexts. It's a very big area and I think we need to look at it from both historical contexts and ethical ones.


I'll finish my rambling with some links.

"For years it has to be said that if one wants to understand Gorin no Sho, one must also understand the Buddhist Sutras. Without this, it is impossible to understand the real meaning of Gorin no Sho and the mind of Musashi. Both Gorin no Sho and the Buddhist Sutras are indispensable to Hyoho Budo."

http://www.hyoho.com/Hyoho1.html


http://www.koryu.com/library/tnishioka1.html


http://www.koryu.com/library/dskoss6.html

http://www.koryu.com/library/eamdur3.html
AlexMcLeod
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Re: Can I fight and be a Buddhist?

Post by AlexMcLeod »

tomschwarz wrote:very interesting alex. and it sounds logical. but how do you reconcile ideas like "be so much better than an aggressor" with ideas like
Sonna Sutra wrote:When any ascetics and brahmins, on the basis of feeling … on the basis of perception … on the basis of volitional formations … on the basis of consciousness—which is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change—regard themselves thus: ‘I am superior,’ or ‘I am equal,’ or ‘I am inferior,’ what is that due to apart from not seeing things as they really are?
Understand that when I said better, I meant in relation to tactical, strategic and internal force capacities. I am unaware of a method of making a person's inherent worth any better or worse.
Relax! Smile From The Heart!
There is a difference between the Mundane and the Transcendental. If you purposefully confuse them, I will ignore you, you nihilist.
There is no Emotion, there is Peace. There is no Ignorance, there is Knowledge. There is no Passion, there is Serenity. There is no Death, there is the Force.
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