Living from ultimate truth

General discussion, particularly exploring the Dharma in the modern world.
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Rick »

Malcolm wrote:The guru's job is to teach. Your job is to discover the meaning. It is not a situation where you have to meet with your teacher regularly on a private basis.
I accept that this is part of the tradition. But I don't like it. I like intense and regular one-on-one meetings. I like to develop an actual intimate relationship with my teacher. It has to be personal for me. If not, I'd rather get the lessons from books.
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
rachmiel wrote: Might be a better starting point to ask why you are so adamant about not having one, or about not connecting to teachers.
Also a good place to dive in. Maybe I never met the right person, but of the dozen or so guru-ish figures I've had in my life -- teachers in school, college, therapists, shamans, "masters" from different spiritual traditions -- I ended up feeling NONE of them had much more of a clue than I did about what's really going on. They might have had their games down, believed deeply in their stories ... but I never met anyone I would trust to tell me how to "get it." With the possible exception of Anam Thubten, but I'll never know how that would have worked out because he doesn't offer the kind of personal relationship with regular private meetings that I want in a teacher.
It really isn't about what they "know", it's about what they've realized, and whether or not you are confident they have.You don't necessarily need to have such an immediate relationship, you need devotion to a teacher and teachings, they don't have to live with you, in your town, be there to constantly answer questions in person (though that's gold if you can get it) etc. The relationship is more "internal" than all that.
I might give off the vibe that I've never bothered to try the guru/pupil thing ... but I have, several times, and it doesn't seem to work for me, for whatever reasons. The only "wisdom" I've ever acquired that's stuck is that which I've run into on my own, often painfully, head on, BOOM! I will only accept that which I discover myself.
It's more that you seem to maybe have a superficial idea of what the guru/pupil relationship actually is, or is meant to do in the Buddhist sense, that is the place to start probably. Trying to discover the nature of mind by yourself is like trying to get somewhere with no map, no directions. You might get in the vicinity, but without some help you won't even know what you're looking for.

The funny thing is, the more sure you are in your teachers teachings, the more independent and confident you will be...so it is the opposite (I think) of the connotation that seems to bug you - of ritual deference to authority, etc.
:good:
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Mkoll
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Mkoll »

rachmiel wrote:Is it possible to live from ultimate truth?
If you understand it, you can't help living from ultimate truth. If you don't, you can't help but not.

Doesn't mean you can't fake it till you make it, but always understand where you're at—i.e. don't overestimate yourself because this leads to all kinds of megalomania.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

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tomschwarz wrote:I think that Johnny and Malcolm are being too categorical. All of these subjects, which appear to be this versus that, dissolve into their contexts, their causes. That is the bigger picture. But more specifically, there are an infinite number of beings who have made an infinite amount of spiritual progress (akin to what you think of as progress on the path) without a guru and without Buddhism, as you consider it, with all these dharma terms.

This if you respect beginningless time and the idea that all 5 world religions lead to the same place. But even if you believe that "Buddhism " is the only way to salvation, and only as defined in the last 2 thousand years and only here on earth, think of sidartha gautama, he had some hard times, some downfalls. And yet he came out of it all right. But there where no teachings of "Buddhism " at the time of his birth... ...so who was his guru?

All this, and of course, I have great respect for the guru student tradition which I practice myself. But all of this brash categorical speech is not Buddhist. It is not gentle, to allow the infinite detail of the ultimate truth to reveal to our subtle most consciousness....
:namaste:
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

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Johnny Dangerous wrote:It really isn't about what they "know", it's about what they've realized, and whether or not you are confident they have.
Well, again, I've met several teachers who were considered to be realized ... and definitely sensed their strength and togetherness ... but never came away feeling they were "enlightened." I don't know what enlightened would look like ... and am not sure it even exists. No disrespect intended, just being honest. And regarding devotion, I honestly don't think I have it in me to be devoted to someone unless I felt strongly connected with them, intimate, personal.
Trying to discover the nature of mind by yourself is like trying to get somewhere with no map, no directions.
Yes! Frustrating, very hard. But I won't say impossible ... because I can't know that. Anyway, I'm not sure that is what I'm ultimately after, to know the nature of the mind. My quarry might be more in the feeling realm.
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Malcolm
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Malcolm »

rachmiel wrote:
Malcolm wrote:The guru's job is to teach. Your job is to discover the meaning. It is not a situation where you have to meet with your teacher regularly on a private basis.
I accept that this is part of the tradition. But I don't like it. I like intense and regular one-on-one meetings. I like to develop an actual intimate relationship with my teacher. It has to be personal for me. If not, I'd rather get the lessons from books.
You will never be able to have an experience of the direction perception of your real nature by reading a book. It will never happen.
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

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But reading and contemplating can help prepare the soil in which a seed might take.
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

rachmiel wrote:But reading and contemplating can help prepare the soil in which a seed might take.
The seed is already there, as far as nature of mind stuff goes, there's no need to grow a seed or anything, no need to cultivate or change up anything. Literally it just needs to be pointed out to you. Study is good to have the base in place, but it's just the map. It seems complicated when you read about it, but it isn't.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

-Khunu Lama
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by dreambow »

"Or does "the transcendent state" choose you once you have eightfold-path-ishly prepared the soil?"
If ripe it'll choose you, with or without a teacher, with or without having read sutras. Lineage is not quite the panacea we anticipate. Silence is the reference point from where there is no location but there is no other indicator. How else to gauge what is beyond the grasp of the mind.
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by muni »

Vasana wrote:It might be worth unravelling any coarse and subtle narratives you have about the teacher-student aversion and then running them by what the teachings say about the ultimate nature and dynamic of the teacher-student relationship and the ultimate nature of refuge it's self which isn't found outside of your own nature.

The teacher might have a personality and a physical body but that's not really the core of the refuge either. The purpose of the outer-relatonship isn't to make you more dependent on anyone or anything but to assist in revealing the inner teacher.
Thank you. You make it clear the Guru is medicine curing dualism.
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by DGA »

rachmiel wrote:But reading and contemplating can help prepare the soil in which a seed might take.
in my opinion and admittedly limited experience, study and contemplation is more useful and constructive after what the Dzogchen people call "direct introduction."
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

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Alright alright yous guys got to me! :tantrum: What are friends for, eh? :namaste:

I woke up feeling the strength of my connection to Anam Thubten. I have considered him my teacher pretty much ever since my first exposure to him, in a video played at a local AT sangha meeting years ago. I'm disappointed not to be able to meet with him more often privately, but I can deal with it, especially in light of what JD and Malcolm said about the nature of a guru.

I will own my feelings for AT and his teachings, which are strong and positive, rekindle the connection which has gone a bit dormant, and see where things go. So I don't have to search for a teacher ... rather admit to myself that I already found one and act on it. Hopefully my inner teacher will learn what it needs from Anam to become a more effective and loving presence.

Good outcome! :twothumbsup: :thanks:
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
White Lotus
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by White Lotus »

a fun exercise: hum a tune you have never heard, where each note is a leap of faith. access your stream of consciousness.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by White Lotus »

another excercise: automatic writing. focusing on buddha: just write whatever comes into your mind word by word.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
White Lotus
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by White Lotus »

after a while you are able to converse with buddha. ive gained comfort and knowledge, but dont expect infallibility.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
Malcolm
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Malcolm »

rachmiel wrote:So I don't have to search for a teacher ... rather admit to myself that I already found one and act on it. Hopefully my inner teacher will learn what it needs from Anam to become a more effective and loving presence.
Compassion arises from observing that sentient don't know who they are.
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Rick »

Compassion arises from observing that sentient don't know who they are.
Ssssssssshewwwwwwwwwwwww ... :geek:

That's the sound of your message flying by without me fathoming whatcha mean. Try again?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by dzogchungpa »

rachmiel wrote:Alright alright yous guys got to me! :tantrum: What are friends for, eh? :namaste:

I woke up feeling the strength of my connection to Anam Thubten. I have considered him my teacher pretty much ever since my first exposure to him, in a video played at a local AT sangha meeting years ago. I'm disappointed not to be able to meet with him more often privately, but I can deal with it, especially in light of what JD and Malcolm said about the nature of a guru.

I will own my feelings for AT and his teachings, which are strong and positive, rekindle the connection which has gone a bit dormant, and see where things go. So I don't have to search for a teacher ... rather admit to myself that I already found one and act on it. Hopefully my inner teacher will learn what it needs from Anam to become a more effective and loving presence.

Good outcome! :twothumbsup: :thanks:
IMO, you'd be hard-pressed to find a better teacher than AT. Truly a remarkable master.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Rick
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by Rick »

Part adorable ... part demonic ... what's not to like?
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily ...
White Lotus
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Re: Living from ultimate truth

Post by White Lotus »

a snow lion. rrr.
in any matters of importance. dont rely on me. i may not know what i am talking about. take what i say as mere speculation. i am not ordained. nor do i have a formal training. i do believe though that if i am wrong on any point. there are those on this site who i hope will quickly point out my mistakes.
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