initiations clean out

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????
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

Can someone give me a clear and not ambiguous answers
Is there a possibility to move from one incarnation to the next through death/separated by death
similar to the transition from one day to another, separated by a dream?

I do not understand this,I can not deal with it and it consumed me :techproblem:
"Does it hurt being dead"??All beings are too dead to die
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Paul
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Paul »

Yes. Have you received teaching/read about on the bardos? According to them the state between lives is very much like a dream. One of the points of practising dream yoga is to gain liberation in this state.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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????
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

You know what I mean?
When I fall asleep tonight and wake up tomorrow
I still have a continuity,I remember yesterday, and I know that today I'm
is the same I'm from yesterday
I know what I do today because yesterday I determined it

You know what is the point?
Not about similarity betwen dream and death,I know it
I ask about analogous

- Oh, daybreak again, another day(I remember yesterday)
- Oh, new embodiment, next incarnation(I remember previous life)

You know what I mean?
Now I dont remember anything from past ,I feel my life as first life

I remeber previous days but I dont feel Im... continuation.
And I found answer why(in teachings)
I dont remember previous lifes because there is noone who can remeber
noone who can go from one life to next life,only causes

If You do this and that,then you will create after your death someone with such predispositions,but it won't be you
(but I dont understend why)

Teachings give me answer but I dont get it.
In some teaching I exists ,then I do not exists...
I must choose correct answer myself?What I want?
Last edited by ???? on Sat Nov 15, 2014 9:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Grigoris »

This life is a bardo too, the Kyenay bardo (skye gnas bar do). If you do not (cannot) realise the dream-like quality of this life, you won't have a chance in hell of doing so during the Chikhai bardo ('chi kha'i bar do) - bardo of the moment of death, the Chönyi bardo (chos nyid bar do) - bardo of the luminosity of the true nature, and the Sidpa bardo (srid pa bar do) - bardo of becoming or transmigration.

Without a guru you will have less than a chance in hell.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Paul
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Paul »

???? wrote:You know what I mean?
When I fall asleep tonight and wake up tomorrow
I still have a continuity,I remember yesterday, and I know that today I'm
is the same I'm from yesterday
I know what I do today because yesterday I determined it
That is just the continuous clarity of the mind.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

We can see a catapillar as it metamorphosiizes into a butterfly. We know it is the same creature. It doesn't matter if the butterfly remembers having been a catapillar or not.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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????
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

It doesn't matter if the butterfly remembers having been a catapillar or not.
Yes it is,this is fundamental matter...for me.
Besides, in Your example body is changeing( perhaps continuity of consciousness disappears)
but I do not identify myself with body,I identify myself with consciousness/mind etc

So,if if the butterfly dont remember,nothing makes sense
He will be make the same mistakes again, because he don't remember what they have learned before.
Fundamental matter
"Does it hurt being dead"??All beings are too dead to die
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Paul
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Paul »

Have you studied the alaya vijnana and its role in rebirth of consciousness?
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

He will be make the same mistakes again, because he don't remember what they have learned before.
The teachings on rebirth and karma aren't quite like that. You come into this life with karma in the form of habits as well as fully ripened karma (circumstances of birth, etc.) You can have 'karmic momentum'. It is cumulative over lifetimes--which can be either for either good or ill.
:crying:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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????
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

If we can not keep continuity of consciousness without distortion between past,present and future life
the same as between yesterday,today and tomorrow,then death means the end.

Consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness
Four different beings,this is not a continuation of one

If we had no memory and we can not remember anything
every moment would be the first moment of consciousness,we would not know about own existence

Someone who is looking at us, knows that we exist
but this is irrelevant for us because we do not know it.

The same in the case of reincarnation
if we can not keep continuity of consciousness between past,present and future life
we have no past and next lives,only present here and now.
Life,death/reset,end our life,another life,not our life,it is someone's life.
"Does it hurt being dead"??All beings are too dead to die
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by muni »

When I fall asleep tonight and wake up tomorrow
I still have a continuity,I remember yesterday, and I know that today I'm
is the same I'm from yesterday
I is a thought, or is idea in a thought. Where is yesterday right now and where is I from yesterday... Can only be in thought image right now. I is in the world made in the film studio/our head, and yesterday I was the same is believing that solid I exist. But we are used to do so, to belief that.

If I is exactly the same, I should have exactly same thoughts, exactly same feeling, experience. It should be like our mind is same as a harmed cd always repeating the same sound. By the impermanence, all is fresh right now. Now is always fresh.

:namaste:

:meditate:
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Grigoris
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Grigoris »

???? wrote:If we can not keep continuity of consciousness without distortion between past,present and future life
the same as between yesterday,today and tomorrow,then death means the end.

Consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness
Four different beings,this is not a continuation of one

If we had no memory and we can not remember anything
every moment would be the first moment of consciousness,we would not know about own existence

Someone who is looking at us, knows that we exist
but this is irrelevant for us because we do not know it.

The same in the case of reincarnation
if we can not keep continuity of consciousness between past,present and future life
we have no past and next lives,only present here and now.
Life,death/reset,end our life,another life,not our life,it is someone's life.
When you wake up in the morning do you remember EVERYTHING from the day before? From the past week? Past month? Past year? Past decade? Etc...? So obviously you are not the continuation of a single being.

Go study Buddhist theories on Karma/Kamma. This is a good starting point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jesse
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Jesse »

???? wrote:
It doesn't matter if the butterfly remembers having been a catapillar or not.
Yes it is,this is fundamental matter...for me.
Besides, in Your example body is changeing( perhaps continuity of consciousness disappears)
but I do not identify myself with body,I identify myself with consciousness/mind etc

So,if if the butterfly dont remember,nothing makes sense
He will be make the same mistakes again, because he don't remember what they have learned before.
Fundamental matter
All sentient beings are just like waves on the ocean. When the wave ceases it only returns to it's true self, and another wave forms, yet again forgetting that ultimately it's just the ocean. Not a single one of these waves were ever inherently real to begin with.

Sentient being's are a delusion unto themselves, the delusion is I.

I remember feeling this way before. I think mainly when we first start practicing Buddhism we experience alot of happiness and joy. After a certain point we experience & learn some thing's that are not pleasant for the ego to accept. In fact the ego will do all it can to hang on to it's illusions, and then we get mad at spirituality / buddhism because if not for these thing's I'd still be happy. You can't un-know some things, so you just have to learn to accept them.

One thing I've learned is that.. all of my unhappiness I've experienced in this way was just further delusion.. when you truly understand what Buddhism is pointing to, there is no suffering anymore.. so any suffering we experience is on fault of our ideas and delusions.. my advice would be to take a break from thing's for a while.. then come back to spirituality/buddhism once your mind is more settled.
Last edited by Jesse on Sun Nov 16, 2014 10:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by muni »

Sorry, I just realize that only the I right now can disturb (then no awareness/mindfulness) right now, the one of yesterday not. So they cannot be the same.

My delusions seem always fresh, then no need to hold on them.

:meditate:
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Paul
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Paul »

???? wrote:If we can not keep continuity of consciousness without distortion between past,present and future life
the same as between yesterday,today and tomorrow,then death means the end.

Consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness,reset,consciousness
Four different beings,this is not a continuation of one

If we had no memory and we can not remember anything
every moment would be the first moment of consciousness,we would not know about own existence

Someone who is looking at us, knows that we exist
but this is irrelevant for us because we do not know it.

The same in the case of reincarnation
if we can not keep continuity of consciousness between past,present and future life
we have no past and next lives,only present here and now.
Life,death/reset,end our life,another life,not our life,it is someone's life.
Maybe the following from Mipham's Gateway to Knowledge will help:
[4,24] [...] the arising of all outer and inner phenomena require
that their respective causes and conditions come together in the
appropriate manner. When these [factors] are incomplete,
phenomena do not arise, while when complete, they will
definitely arise. That is the nature of dependent origination.
[4,26] What is an example for this? Here is how it should be
understood:
Like a recitation, a butter lamp, a mirror, a stamp,
A magnifying glass, a seed, sourness, or a sound,
So also with the continuation of the aggregates [reincarnation]
Should the wise realize that they do not transmigrate.


[4,27] Realizing this, you understand that all things are merely an
unfailing manifestation of interdependence. Because they have
not occurred either through themselves, through something
other, through both, or without causes, they are therefore unoriginated
[nonarising]. They are not made by a creator such as
Time or the Almighty. They are devoid of a life principle or a
personality, a doer or a self, or the identity of things. They are
hollow and false, and are devoid of a self-nature. The one who
understands that this is so, is unaffected by [the 360 unwholesome
beliefs], such as conceptualizing a self in the past, present or
future.

[14,28] Thus, the one who possesses the acceptance that these [beliefs]
will not arise in the future, will be confirmed in unexcelled
enlightenment by all the buddhas.

[4,29] In this way, these twelve aspects of interdependence will continuously
evolve for as long as ignorance has not been relinquished.
The past causes, ignorance and formation, make the present
consciousness that is the impelled result appear, and the following
links, down to the disturbing emotions craving and grasping,
gather the karma that produces a rebirth. Thus, up to becoming,
eight evolve. Continuing therefrom, there is the taking of birth in
the realm corresponding to one's karma and through that [bodily]
support one will undergo the samsaric suffering of aging, dying
and so forth.
So there is the dependently arisen experiences of being a sentient being, which occur again and again until there is the realisation that these are empty and in reality do not arise - ie that there has never been a really existing sentient being really taking rebirth.
Look at the unfathomable spinelessness of man: all the means he's been given to stay alert he uses, in the end, to ornament his sleep. – Rene Daumal
the modern mind has become so limited and single-visioned that it has lost touch with normal perception - John Michell
muni
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by muni »

its hard when your "anger" grow up...I wrote anger :quoteunquote: but this is only mental shortcut
"Anger" - too many negative emotions to describe them all,I cant do this and that is why Im anger
Be perfectly candid,I dont care about all beings no more,even myself (Im also being).
Everything was good, increasingly,and one day suddenly all it has become collapsed ( I hate it )

...ok, I'm out,it makes no sense to waste our time
I recognize that. Once I was bowing and with my nose in between a plastic flip flop and a heel, I was wondering what am I doing here? There is even no room to bow! But now I get tears in my eyes. Maybe all is going through processes and no need to hold on our experiences, we can just allow kindness of initiations, even they seem to be useless in desperate thoughts.

I guess it is like clouds slowly starting to disappear, slowly showing clear sky.

Maybe most are going through moments of disappointments, feelings of wasting time, but these are mostly not said.

Then when practice is, this is good medicine for our disappointments.

:namaste:
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

Where is yesterday right now and where is I from yesterday
There where there is always,mind/I'm/consciousness, is like a space,everywhere :)
I is a thought
Consciousness also?
Consciousness allow me to say that I am,it does not matter who I am
it's about presence of this "thing" which sees, hears etc
If I is exactly the same, I should have exactly same thoughts
I know what you want to say but I was thinking about something different.
Consciousness/presence is exactly the same everyday
We are conscious or not
Consciousness always = 1,we can not be conscious differently than someone else
We can not be unconscious differently than someone else

We have one consciousness and one unconsciousness,always the same
At all times, we are equally conscious or unconscious
Consciousness is not changed
You can lose but you can not change
Oh,today I have different kind of consciousness
Yesterday I could say I'm conscious,but today I'm
<a word that does not exist yet> :D

You can not change way of being conscious into another way of being conscious.
You know what I want to say?
Now is always fresh
and always we fell our "now"/presence in the same way
When you wake up in the morning do you remember EVERYTHING from the day before? From the past week? Past month? Past year?
memory problems is another matter

Today I make plan about tomorrow
Tomorrow/today I'm doing what I planned yesterday
because I do not lose a continuation of myself.
I know in present what I wanted to do in past and I do this now,my past and my present I have in one point,now.
If you will reset my memory/mind every day before my awakening,I will be the same person for years
but so what?
I will not knew that,every day will be the first day.This is horror.

Who am I?
where I am?
aha, I understand
time to sleep

who am I?
where I am?
aha, I understand
time to sleep, tomorrow I have to make dinner

Who am I?
where I am?
How dinner?
What is dinner?
I don't even know how to breathe :D
I don't even know how to speak,what is language?
I do not have thoughts
I do not know that I experience own existence because I do not know anything
HORROR
(of course,person from my example cant say this because they dont know how,it is only example)

Every moment disappear from our memory
at the same time when we are experiencing this moment
Without memory there is no consciousness

All sentient beings are just like waves on the ocean.
We are waves or ocean?


I can not answer all yours questions because it's hard translates into English,I don't understand everything in 100%
"Does it hurt being dead"??All beings are too dead to die
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Grigoris
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Grigoris »

Well, it is quite clear you have all the answers, so why are you here then?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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????
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by ???? »

you have all the answers, so why are you here then?
Where?Here on forum or here in this dimension?
I have all the answers?Maybe I have...ok,let say I have all the answers
but I still dont have certainty I need certainty not uncertain doctrines
"Does it hurt being dead"??All beings are too dead to die
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Grigoris
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Re: initiations clean out

Post by Grigoris »

???? wrote:
you have all the answers, so why are you here then?
Where?Here on forum or here in this dimension?
I have all the answers?Maybe I have...ok,let say I have all the answers
but I still dont have certainty I need certainty not uncertain doctrines
So go find a teacher. They will give you practices. Then practice and achieve realisation. Then your uncertainty will disappear. Knowing can reduce uncertainty but it cannot overcome it completely. One can change ones mind regarding theories, but one cannot deny realisation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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