Shikan taza - Shamatha-vipashyana

[zenman]

I once read from somewhere that the Japanese word for just sitting shi+kan is derived of shamatha+vipashyana. That these two characters have same or similar meanings. Any idea if this is actually true?

Thanks.

[Jesse]

I once read from somewhere that the Japanese word for just sitting shi+kan is derived of shamatha+vipashyana. That these two characters have same or similar meanings. Any idea if this is actually true?

Thanks.

I remember either astus or hufang posting that zazen is the combination of both types of meditation. Effectively.

[zenman]

I remember either astus or hufang posting that zazen is the combination of both types of meditation. Effectively.

The reason why I am asking is because that is precisely my exp about it. I just wonder if there is also an etymological/historical/traditional proof to his.

Some bits about this can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shikantaza

[zenman]

Perhaps not the word itself. Yet it seems that some ancient Soto/Caodong-generations did view silent illumination as a combination of the two.

Edit: Someone removed a message prior to this one.

[Seishin]

I believe 'Shikantaza' 只管打坐 was coined by Dogen as a kind of play on words, maybe even a bit of a dig, at the Tendai form of meditation, which is 'shikan' 止観 (Dogen was a Tendai monk before leaving to start Soto zen). Notice the difference in the Kanji? The Tendai 'shikan' is translated as 'samatha-vispassan'. Dogen's 'shikantaza' roughly translates as 'nothing but precisely sitting'.

I have also read that it was actually Dogen's teacher who coined the term 'shikantaza', but I was told by my teacher that the Caodong school actually called their form of zen 'silent illumination' (默照禪 Mokusho Zen). Someone with a better knowledge of history might be able to correct this though.

For further reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiantai
http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=926

[Caodemarte]

I don't believe the word shikantaza derives from the other two words. Basically it simply means just (imperative) sit. Wether the character for sitting is also used in the character for translations for other meditation forms is immaterial, except for literary purposes. None of this tells you much about the actual practice. Historically, of course, the Zen tradition was formed by monks pretty conversant with the wider Buddhist tradition and acting out of it.

Are these practices the same or different? Depends on how you practice them!

[Seishin]

Historically, there were different practices, and often debated over, and not just in China. These days, it seems, as though the lines have been blurred.

It is important to note, words and their meanings aside, that Dogen propagated his form of meditation as both different and better to that in Tendai (and other schools). And as visualisations and contemplations, which are integral in Tendai shikan, are not practiced in zen, I'd argue that they are different practices. But that isn't a bad thing.

[zenman]

I believe 'Shikantaza' 只管打坐 was coined by Dogen as a kind of play on words, maybe even a bit of a dig, at the Tendai form of meditation, which is 'shikan' 止観 (Dogen was a Tendai monk before leaving to start Soto zen). Notice the difference in the Kanji? The Tendai 'shikan' is translated as 'samatha-vispassan'. Dogen's 'shikantaza' roughly translates as 'nothing but precisely sitting'.

I have also read that it was actually Dogen's teacher who coined the term 'shikantaza', but I was told by my teacher that the Caodong school actually called their form of zen 'silent illumination' (默照禪 Mokusho Zen). Someone with a better knowledge of history might be able to correct this though.

For further reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiantai
http://www.sgilibrary.org/search_dict.php?id=926

Thank you! I must have read that from a Tendai sourfe then and misremembered the two.

I will a couple of quotes from this thread and start another at the Soto-subforum. Thanks all!