Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

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zenman
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Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by zenman »

Anyone know what trekcho, togal and kati (channel) are in sanskrit?
Stewart
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by Stewart »

Vyutkrantaka for Tögal and Samapatti for Trekchö AFAIK.
s.
tingdzin
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by tingdzin »

Stewart:
Are these words from a Sanskrit source? A lot of people, including some Tibetans, are so eager to find Indian equivalents for everything in Tibetan Buddhism that they back-translate to Sanskrit, sometimes even inventing terminology for which there is no existing Sanskrit or Indian proof.
Malcolm
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote:Stewart:
Are these words from a Sanskrit source? A lot of people, including some Tibetans, are so eager to find Indian equivalents for everything in Tibetan Buddhism that they back-translate to Sanskrit, sometimes even inventing terminology for which there is no existing Sanskrit or Indian proof.
One of the 119 intimate instructions is the khregs chod bdun pa. Its sanskrit title is Samapatti nāma. This text exists in the Bairo rgyud 'bum as well.

Vyutkrāntaka is a well known term, a type of samapatti, and is translated into Tibetan as thod rgal. It means something like skipping stages. Khyentse Wangpo explains the term thod rgal in just that way in one of his notes on Dzogchen in his collected works.
tingdzin
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by tingdzin »

OK, Malcolm, but does this Sampatti nama exist in Sanskrit?
Malcolm
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by Malcolm »

tingdzin wrote:OK, Malcolm, but does this Sampatti nama exist in Sanskrit?
The Samapatti nāma purports to be a lung, a citation of the ati bkod pa chen po rgyud. The point is that the text khregs chod bdun pa is given the sanskrit title "Samapatti nāma," meaning that whoever titled it clearly understood khregs chod as a synonym for snyoms par 'jug pa.
tingdzin
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by tingdzin »

Ah, so the answer is no.
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by dzogchungpa »

FWIW, I point out the following footnote from Karmay's "The Great Perfection", p.214:
The term thod rgal, unlike khregs chod, is in fact a translation of Sanskrit vyutkrāntaka or viṣkandaka; for a detailed study of this term and references see J. May, Hobogirin, Tokyo, 1967, pp. 353–360.
Also, Ruegg discusses khregs chod and thod rgal in his book "Buddha-nature, Mind and the Problem of Gradualism in a Comparative Perpective", and says that no Sanskrit original for the first has been identified, and that the latter corresponds to Sanskrit avaskanda(ka), viṣkanda(ka) and vyutkrānta(ka). His footnote 328 reads as follows:
In the Bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo (Zang-Han daicidian, Peking, 1985), khregs chod is defined as (1) snga 'gyur ba'i Ihag mthong gi brda chad (i.e. an expression used by the rnying ma pas for Ihag mthong = vipaśyanā), and (2) ka dag khregs chod kyi bsdus tshig.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
tingdzin
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by tingdzin »

Thanks for the refs, dzogchngpa
zenman
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by zenman »

Thanks for those.

Any idea what kati might be?
Stewart
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by Stewart »

Thanks Dzogchungpa....ever seen a Sanskrit equivalent of 'khor 'das ru shan? Malcolm?
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Stewart
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Re: Trecho, togal and kati in sanskrit?

Post by Stewart »

Bump
s.
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