Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Tenpa
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Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Tenpa »

I have just read a page dedicated to Pointing Out people into the experience of No-Self.
http://liberationunleashed.com/
You can read their e-book here : http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Gate ... ashers.pdf

What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?
Their claim as a Gateless Gatecrasher is seemed too offensive to Buddhist tradition or other traditional lineages at large.
What about Dharma Protector issue? Is it only a mumbo-jumbo to frighten people for not getting the teaching out into public space? Or is it a real issue?
Rationally, I think this is a good idea to give lights to many people in need. But intuitively, I feel the danger of degeneration and digression of the value of traditional Direct Pointing Out.

Please also read Dudjom Lingpa's "A Clear Mirror: The Visionary Autobiography of a Tibetan Master" for that many Dakinis and Dharma Protectors asked him to write precaution about degenerating age to come.

Tashi Deleg.
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lobster
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by lobster »

I find nothing offensive.
I went through their processing, it is harmless enough and may do some good. Taste and know. :popcorn:
Malcolm
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm »

Tenpa wrote: What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?

None whatsoever.
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heart
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
Tenpa wrote: What intrigues me is whether its method have a correlation with Dzogchen's Pointing Out?. Is now a time where traditional method such as preliminaries and all of its samaya all being by-passed?

None whatsoever.
I second that, it just a lot of bla bla bla. If you want direct introduction I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
krodha
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

Tenpa, Liberation Unleashed is nothing like Dzogchen, and in my opinion their 'pointing out' is quite unskilled, they tend to fall into various extremes. Better to find a qualified teacher!
krodha
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

"Moreover, these sentient beings must have also discarded all arbitrary ideas relating to the conceptions of a personal self, other personalities, living beings and a Universal Self, because if they had not, their minds would inevitably grasp after such relative ideas. Further, these sentient beings must have already discarded all arbitrary ideas relating to the conception of the non-existence of a personal self, other personalities, living beings and a Universal Self. If they had not, their minds would still be grasping after such ideas. Therefore, every disciple who is seeking Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi should discard, not only conceptions of one's own selfhood, other selves, living beings and a Universal Selfhood, but should discard, also, all ideas about such conceptions and all ideas about the non-existence of such conceptions."
- Vajracchedikā Prajñāpāramitā Sūtra [The Diamond Sutra]


They usually fall victim to this very principle, they promote 'no-self', however 'no-self' becomes an objectified truth and therefore the idea of 'no-self' is grasped at by the mind, which ends up reifying and reaffirming the very notion they initially set out to negate. So all you have is a bunch of selves (afflicted processes of grasping and clinging) believing there isn't a self.
gentle_monster
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by gentle_monster »

Liberation Unleashed does not lead to rig pa (ka dag and lhun grub non-dual)... So trying to compare it with dzogchen is quite pointless, lol.

But that does not mean they do not lead to certain insights and realizations.
it just a lot of bla bla bla
But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.
So all you have is a bunch of selves (afflicted processes of grasping and clinging) believing there isn't a self.
Certainly not.

Although they obviously lack clarity when it comes to discern various insights, realizations etc...

But they are not mistaking their passing thorugh gate as final liberation and are opened to further refinement and practice...

They posted good article that clarifies their situation on their main page:

Integrating View and Experience

http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_ ... ience.html
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heart
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by heart »

gentle_monster wrote:
heart wrote:it just a lot of bla bla bla
But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla. From a worldly point of view it can be a treasure.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
krodha
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by krodha »

gentle_monster wrote: Certainly not.

Although they obviously lack clarity when it comes to discern various insights, realizations etc...

But they are not mistaking their passing thorugh gate as final liberation and are opened to further refinement and practice...

They posted good article that clarifies their situation on their main page:

Integrating View and Experience

http://liberationunleashed.com/Article_ ... ience.html
I think they've come to realize that what they call 'passing through the gate' isn't equivalent to liberation, a year ago however they might have, and many of those who went through their process did have that impression. They're very active on FB forums so I've interacted with them quite a bit in passing. To their defense, their founding members and 'key figures' are actually very passionate about the dharma. From what I've seen with their interactions online they're very open minded to receiving constructive criticism and seeking an evolution of their views, plus they're very friendly people... I know one of their founding members used to practice Buddhism and was part of a sangha which fell apart due to scandal. I think that caused him to lose confidence in organized systems somewhat, probably was part of what inspired the approach they attempt to implement. At any rate though, doesn't compare to dzogchen. If people have found benefit through their process that's great, but it's a distant and far cry from the Great Perfection teachings. Even Madhyamaka logic is more refined in my opinion, but to each their own!
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

heart wrote:
gentle_monster wrote:
heart wrote:it just a lot of bla bla bla
But that is not true. That some path is not leading to rig pa and is not dzogchen does not mean it is not leading to experiences and insights.
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla. From a worldly point of view it can be a treasure.

/magnus
I wonder how it is that, in the marketing of Dharma to the West, Dzogchen has totally eclipsed Mahamudra? Odd that.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Schrödinger’s Yidam
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

In fact, I'm going to start a campaign to start calling it by its tibetan name. From now on let's call it Chakchen instead of Mahamudra. That'll get back in the game!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
mahabuddha
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by mahabuddha »

Chakya Chenpo!
gentle_monster
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by gentle_monster »

Madhyamaka is logical analysis... "direct pointing" method they use is for experential insight.

You can conclude using logic about twofold emptiness... But personally I don't see someone with better logic as more liberated than someone whose experience is without construing "observer observing observed".
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla.
Do you consider discovering clarity and partially emptiness (firstfold emptiness; of self) as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you consider discovering that experience is spontaneous manifestation without additional experiencer and doer as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you perhaps consider these discoveries as "worldly"? I dunno what is behind your usage of "worldly".


Regards
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heart
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by heart »

gentle_monster wrote:
Ok, I rephrase, from a Dzogchen point it is all bla bla bla.
Do you consider discovering clarity and partially emptiness (firstfold emptiness; of self) as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you consider discovering that experience is spontaneous manifestation without additional experiencer and doer as irrelevant in dzogchen practice?

Do you perhaps consider these discoveries as "worldly"? I dunno what is behind your usage of "worldly".

Regards
Words such as emptiness and clarity and so on can be used from both a worldly and dharmic point of view, but what is indicated will differ a lot. You need the auspicious coincidence of a meeting between a qualified master and a qualified student to accurately introduce the natural state, and that is Dzogchen. Any attempt doing this without being a qualified master will not introduce the natural state or emptiness or clarity or spontaneous manifestation, so that is then something else. Sorry if I hurt your feelings with the "bla bla bla" but I don't believe these kind things will liberate anyone from samsara and hence they are worldly.

/magnus
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by dzogchungpa »

Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

dzogchungpa wrote:Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla
So is "yaba daba do". (Well, without the 'daba' part.)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
MalaBeads
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by MalaBeads »

smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla
So is "yaba daba do". (Well, without the 'daba' part.)
That's funny.

:tongue:
I am well aware of my idiocy. I am also very aware that you too are an idiot. Therein lies our mutuality.
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heart
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by heart »

dzogchungpa wrote:Actually, "bla bla bla" is pretty good, from a Tibetan pov:

http://rywiki.tsadra.org/index.php/bla
:smile:
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Tenpa
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by Tenpa »

heart wrote:I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.
I am a Dzogchen practitioner of ChNN. :smile:
Just want to surface this issue for public knowledge, because some of the person I know construes that UL is the same as Dzogchen, but I can't ensure him. :namaste:
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heart
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Re: Liberation Unleashed in the POV of Dzogchen

Post by heart »

Tenpa wrote:
heart wrote:I recommend finding a Dzogchen master.
I am a Dzogchen practitioner of ChNN. :smile:
Just want to surface this issue for public knowledge, because some of the person I know construes that UL is the same as Dzogchen, but I can't ensure him. :namaste:
If Malcolm, an old student of ChNNR, says no you should be able to trust that for now. Eventually, as you gain more confidence in your practice, you will be able to come to this conclusion be yourself.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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