The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Many years ago Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a translator called Kennard Lipman. He translated and published some of the first important Dzogchen text available openly. Such as "Primodial Experience" and "You are the eyes of the world". I wonder what happened to him and happened to run across this
http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
Anyway, suddenly out of the blue a new book arrives with his name on it.
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=21310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts. However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
/magnus
http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
Anyway, suddenly out of the blue a new book arrives with his name on it.
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=21310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts. However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Am so wondering, as all embracing nature, (he wrote another book of Dzogchen) is not excluding anything or any religion, knowing how all phenomena are...heart wrote:Many years ago Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche had a translator called Kennard Lipman. He translated and published some of the first important Dzogchen text available openly. Such as "Primodial Experience" and "You are the eyes of the world". I wonder what happened to him and happened to run across this
http://www.reformjudaismmag.net/03summer/buddhist.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; . In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
Anyway, suddenly out of the blue a new book arrives with his name on it.
http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=21310" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts. However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
/magnus
My cat long time lives with a dog, but cat doesn't bark.
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Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
That other book,
http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/i ... -898-6.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gratitude for translation work.
http://www.shambhala.com/html/catalog/i ... -898-6.cfm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Gratitude for translation work.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Yup... Heard about it two years ago. Also read this article last year I think. I found it a little ironic...heart wrote: In short he left Buddhism and became a Rabi.
They're interesting indeed. Too bad that to actually practice them you need transmission of this...It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts.
I have wondered the same thing when I saw that he's going to publish a new book. The thing is that's what he studied for, translating, right? So it doesn't necessarily mean he went back to Buddhism...However I can't quite stop to wonder if he is back to Buddhism again? Anyone knows?
Why? I think belief is not so relevant. What is relevant is the translators ability to translate. But to that I suppose is related the translators practical understanding of the teachings.When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
That may be true for some, I personally don't think it is in this case...Muni wrote: Am so wondering, as all embracing nature, (he wrote another book of Dzogchen) is not excluding anything or any religion, knowing how all phenomena are...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
When understanding is, is there understanding of the nature of all phenomena, religions.Pero wrote:
Am so wondering, as all embracing nature, (he wrote another book of Dzogchen) is not excluding anything or any religion, knowing how all phenomena are...
That may be true for some, I personally don't think it is in this case...
dzogchen transcends earthly (conditioned)institutions. Furthermore am i grateful for this man his work.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
No idea. The buddhists who knows him and worked with him, can maybe the best ensure the qualility of the translation for people who like to read this new book.udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Eh well, the ability to translate is dependent on how well we know the subject and also on our relationship to the subject. There a quite a few translations that are made by scholars that are pretty doubtful as far as translations go. I would say that this is particularly true about Dzogchen.Pero wrote:Why? I think belief is not so relevant. What is relevant is the translators ability to translate. But to that I suppose is related the translators practical understanding of the teachings.heart wrote: When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Yes there are quite a few odd quotes here and there in his own commentary. He was a student for Herbert Gunther so his translation style is a bit odd as well.udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Ah yes. Lipman also did the Longchenpa text which he gave a Grateful Dead title (You are the Eyes of the World). I guess the ironic thing about late Guenther translations (and possibly those of his students) is that they are so opaque, and require so much un-translation to understand, that they remain almost as 'secret' as if they were left in the original Tibetan.heart wrote:Yes there are quite a few odd quotes here and there in his own commentary. He was a student for Herbert Gunther so his translation style is a bit odd as well.udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
/magnus
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.udawa wrote:Ah yes. Lipman also did the Longchenpa text which he gave a Grateful Dead title (You are the Eyes of the World). I guess the ironic thing about late Guenther translations (and possibly those of his students) is that they are so opaque, and require so much un-translation to understand, that they remain almost as 'secret' as if they were left in the original Tibetan.heart wrote:Yes there are quite a few odd quotes here and there in his own commentary. He was a student for Herbert Gunther so his translation style is a bit odd as well.udawa wrote:Looking at the extract from his introduction, I see that Lipman references C.G. Jung and talks about archetypes when explaining vajrayana practice.
Possibly not a good sign if you are looking for a translation from within the tradition.
D
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Upon reading the translations, I must admit to have been quite puzzled sometimes. I asked Jean-Luc to check with his own translation of these texts and we found that the Lipman versions are not very precise. For instance, at the beginning of text one, some lines are squeezed, others are skipped (like announcing the structure of the text), another one (the enumeration of the elements) has extra material added by Lipman and a quotation is not translated. There is nothing typographically that lets you be aware of this. Translating back from Jean-Luc french translation (switch technical words with your usual ones if necessary), the first lines are after the homage :
I, myself, Padma from Orgyen,
Will reveal the oral teachings (zhal gyi gdams pa)
Of these crucial pith-instructions of the Dakinis.
This has five main subdivisions :
The outer, inner, secret, (as well as)
The innermost secret and the unnexcelled (explanations).
On this (subject), the Longsel Tantra says :
« — [The elements have] outer, inner, secret, etc., [aspects]
As well as fluctuating, changing and arising activities. »
First as to the five outer elements (or the five elements in their outer aspect),
These are earth, water, fire, wind and space.
etc.
(o rgyan padma bdag 'dra yis: dâ kki gnad kyi gdams ngag 'di: zhal gyi gdams pa bstan par bya: de la spyi don rnam lnga ste: phyi dang nang dang gsang ba dang: yang gsang bla na med pa lnga: de la'ang klong gsal rgyud dag las: phyi nang gsang ba la sogs pa: dar gud 'pho 'gyur 'byung ba'i las: zhes pas: dang po phyi 'byung ba lnga ni: sa chu me rlung nam mkha' dang lnga'o:)
The treatment is even worse in the second text, where a large part of the introductory material in tibetan is lacking in the English translation. It’s a wonder such a work was accepted for publication by Shambhala. Nobody reads Tibetan in their offices ? This is not very serious and not very respectful of the Terma tradition... I always had reservations regarding Lipman's translations (starting with his lexicon) but these are really confirming my opinion on this author's work.
I, myself, Padma from Orgyen,
Will reveal the oral teachings (zhal gyi gdams pa)
Of these crucial pith-instructions of the Dakinis.
This has five main subdivisions :
The outer, inner, secret, (as well as)
The innermost secret and the unnexcelled (explanations).
On this (subject), the Longsel Tantra says :
« — [The elements have] outer, inner, secret, etc., [aspects]
As well as fluctuating, changing and arising activities. »
First as to the five outer elements (or the five elements in their outer aspect),
These are earth, water, fire, wind and space.
etc.
(o rgyan padma bdag 'dra yis: dâ kki gnad kyi gdams ngag 'di: zhal gyi gdams pa bstan par bya: de la spyi don rnam lnga ste: phyi dang nang dang gsang ba dang: yang gsang bla na med pa lnga: de la'ang klong gsal rgyud dag las: phyi nang gsang ba la sogs pa: dar gud 'pho 'gyur 'byung ba'i las: zhes pas: dang po phyi 'byung ba lnga ni: sa chu me rlung nam mkha' dang lnga'o:)
The treatment is even worse in the second text, where a large part of the introductory material in tibetan is lacking in the English translation. It’s a wonder such a work was accepted for publication by Shambhala. Nobody reads Tibetan in their offices ? This is not very serious and not very respectful of the Terma tradition... I always had reservations regarding Lipman's translations (starting with his lexicon) but these are really confirming my opinion on this author's work.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Thank you mutsuk, how strange off Lipman to drop lines and extra material is even stranger. Did Jean-Luc translate both the texts to English or is it only in French?mutsuk wrote:Upon reading the translations, I must admit to have been quite puzzled sometimes. I asked Jean-Luc to check with his own translation of these texts and we found that the Lipman versions are not very precise. For instance, at the beginning of text one, some lines are squeezed, others are skipped (like announcing the structure of the text), another one (the enumeration of the elements) has extra material added by Lipman and a quotation is not translated. There is nothing typographically that lets you be aware of this. Translating back from Jean-Luc french translation (switch technical words with your usual ones if necessary), the first lines are after the homage :
I, myself, Padma from Orgyen,
Will reveal the oral teachings (zhal gyi gdams pa)
Of these crucial pith-instructions of the Dakinis.
This has five main subdivisions :
The outer, inner, secret, (as well as)
The innermost secret and the unnexcelled (explanations).
On this (subject), the Longsel Tantra says :
« — [The elements have] outer, inner, secret, etc., [aspects]
As well as fluctuating, changing and arising activities. »
First as to the five outer elements (or the five elements in their outer aspect),
These are earth, water, fire, wind and space.
etc.
(o rgyan padma bdag 'dra yis: dâ kki gnad kyi gdams ngag 'di: zhal gyi gdams pa bstan par bya: de la spyi don rnam lnga ste: phyi dang nang dang gsang ba dang: yang gsang bla na med pa lnga: de la'ang klong gsal rgyud dag las: phyi nang gsang ba la sogs pa: dar gud 'pho 'gyur 'byung ba'i las: zhes pas: dang po phyi 'byung ba lnga ni: sa chu me rlung nam mkha' dang lnga'o:)
The treatment is even worse in the second text, where a large part of the introductory material in tibetan is lacking in the English translation. It’s a wonder such a work was accepted for publication by Shambhala. Nobody reads Tibetan in their offices ? This is not very serious and not very respectful of the Terma tradition... I always had reservations regarding Lipman's translations (starting with his lexicon) but these are really confirming my opinion on this author's work.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
He actually translated the entire Khandro Nyingthik (2 vols!!) but it's all in French (so far... I hope to help him render this into English some day)...heart wrote: Did Jean-Luc translate both the texts to English or is it only in French?
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Could it be that he used a different edition of the text or something?
In any case, this is one of the reasons I want to learn/am learning to read Tibetan...
In any case, this is one of the reasons I want to learn/am learning to read Tibetan...
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
No, he mentions his edition on p. 101 and 119. This is the standard version of the Nyingthik Yabzhi widely available. This is the same that was used for the French translations.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Dear mutsuk, what a wonderful aspiration. Thank you for that thought, may it be completely fulfilled.mutsuk wrote:He actually translated the entire Khandro Nyingthik (2 vols!!) but it's all in French (so far... I hope to help him render this into English some day)...heart wrote: Did Jean-Luc translate both the texts to English or is it only in French?
lots of love
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Magnus, on the face of it, 'mode' does seem to be a perverse translation of 'element' (presumably 'byung ba/bhuta?). Does Lipman give any explanation for his choice of word here?I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.
/magnus
Allowing for Mutsuk's very helpful comments about unreliability issues in the translation, I'm still wondering whether it's worth reading. Any thoughts?
D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
D,udawa wrote:Magnus, on the face of it, 'mode' does seem to be a perverse translation of 'element' (presumably 'byung ba/bhuta?). Does Lipman give any explanation for his choice of word here?I agree, they are almost impossible to read. This one is better than Lipmans other translations. Still it irritates me a lot when he translate element as mode. The wisdom of the five elements have a long history in the west and might even point to a common source with Tantra (just speculation on my part). Calling it mode is just obscuring the meaning.
/magnus
Allowing for Mutsuk's very helpful comments about unreliability issues in the translation, I'm still wondering whether it's worth reading. Any thoughts?
D
Yes, he give a explanation for this, but I don't buy it. I will write what he says when I have more time. I don't read Tibetan but I found the texts very interesting but I did have some doubts even before mutsuk posts which is why I started this thread.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: The return of Kennard Lipman - A new book
Hi Pero,Pero wrote:They're interesting indeed. Too bad that to actually practice them you need transmission of this...It is a translation of two texts from the Khandro Nyingthik. They are very interesting texts.
Why? I think belief is not so relevant. What is relevant is the translators ability to translate. But to that I suppose is related the translators practical understanding of the teachings.When reading texts like this it is kind of nice to know if the translator actually believe in the subject matter or not.
hope you get some nice idea about Padmalingpa's Dronpa Munsel text
To reply your post, I think it's normal that you need a transmission to practice it? So it's probably not 'too bad.'
I don't know what they are, but if it's tsa lung practice, even you got WANG and LUNG you wouldn't be able to practice it properly.
And about translation... I am in the middle of western and tibetan thinking (undecide yet). Tibetan people think if you can translate a high text such as dzogchen properly, you must have got the blessing from guru or diety, otherwise you can't do it properly. That's why there's always translator's homage phrase in translated texts. Logically the ability of translation and one's moral/spiritual level are different, but most of Tibetan believe they are very related.
Anyway, I might be too strict but I believe Buddhist texts, not to mention Dzogchen texts, have to be treated extremely carefully. Losing lines carelessly is just immoral.