Restricted Publications-An Effective or Ineffective Tactic?

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Osho
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Restricted Publications-An Effective or Ineffective Tactic?

Post by Osho »

Discussion split from here.
conebeckham wrote:Just an FYI, saw that Elizabeth Callahan has translated this, along with Kongtrul's commentary, and it will be available as a restricted text in September from Shambhala. Website says you must have completed ngondro, have had pointing out instructions, and be practicing HYT yidam under the guidance of a qualified lama.
Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
Presumably the book will be lodged in copyright libraries as per statute?
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conebeckham
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by conebeckham »

I'm sure, along with all the other restricted texts they publish.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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practitioner
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by practitioner »

Osho wrote: Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...
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mutsuk
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by mutsuk »

practitioner wrote:
Osho wrote: Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...
Then why do they generally charge so much for these "restricted books". A restricted book could be the same price as a normal book, no ? Not to mention, that these works can be found in markets for all public in Tibet. JLA found the Yangti of Dungtso Repa and the Yeshe Lama notes at a bookseller on a public market in Chamdo.... This restriction policy would probably be "acceptable" if it were not for its purpose: selling at higher prices...
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Osho
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Osho »

Exactly.
Upon publication the work will be available for perusal free at any one of the copyright libraries in English speaking countries.
Beyond an initial small run of library and review copies the work is unlikely to be anything other than a 'print to order' work as it would be unlikely to fly off the shelves were it to be put on general sale.
Print to order academic texts always command a high price as they cost more to produce than print run works.
Quasi mystical restrictions upon information that, of necessity; will be in the public domain in copyright libraries - that indeed is truly beyond pathetic.
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Malcolm
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Malcolm »

practitioner wrote:
Osho wrote: Pathetic.
Truly pathetic.
I'd disagree, a translator using their time and expertise to give those who can't read Tibetan access to this text is hardly pathetic. Any restrictions are on the advice of their teacher, hardly a sound marketing strategy...
The point is these these books are freely available to people like me, translators, without any restrictions at all. So making the English translations restricted is just a kind of elitism.

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Malcolm
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:As for "elitism," well.....if the only people with free access to the texts are Tibetan readers, isn't that a form of elitism, as well?

That is the point. If you do not read Tibetan well, you are discriminated against in a form that those of who do read Tibetan well are not.
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conebeckham
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by conebeckham »

Ah! got it! Yes, that's true, Malcolm.

Who knows? Maybe it will inspire some to learn Tibetan, so they can get their fill of the juicy secrets! :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Norwegian
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Norwegian »

It's not about getting ones juicy fill of secrets I think. It's about how some people are setting up even more roadblocks for practicioners. For me at least, I only buy books that are relevant to my path. So if there's something I can buy, but I know isn't relevant to me, I don't buy it.

If ones teacher says it's OK to read a specific text, for example the Zabmo Nangdon, because according to your teacher, you qualify to read and study it, but the publisher - in this case Shambhala - says you do not qualify, then what? It becomes a case of the publisher sort of assuming greater authority than ones own teacher, over a text that is available to anybody who speaks Tibetan without any kind of special restriction. This is not helpful at all.

So, you could opt to not buy the text, because the publisher says you don't qualify, or you could just say on the order form that you do qualify...
ngodrup
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by ngodrup »

Well, there are obstacles. but nobody says you have to
join this religion. Of course there are obstacles in samsara too...
mutsuk
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by mutsuk »

conebeckham wrote:Take a look at the Yeshe Lama, and the Guhyagarbha...etc.
And it's a real shame they are charged so much, when their original counterpart is available for free on TBRC...
Malcolm
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:It's not Shambhala who determines restrictions, but the translators or their teachers. In this case, it was the wish of Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso that certain requirements be met.

I think in all cases, it's not the publisher laying down the rules. Take a look at the Yeshe Lama, and the Guhyagarbha...etc.
The entire (reliable) translation of Longchenpa's commentary on Guhyagarbha is available for free on the internet. It is ludicrous therefore for anyone to restrict commentaries on it.

Everything in Yeshe Lama can be found in various books which anyone can buy. This ludicrous fetish for restriction really ought to be abandoned.
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conebeckham
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by conebeckham »

I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Malcolm
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.

Lamdre is an unrestricted download, and all the most essential Lamdre instructions (slob bshad) have been freely published with HHST's blessings as part of the Library of Tibetan Classics.
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conebeckham
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by conebeckham »

Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
mutsuk
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by mutsuk »

conebeckham wrote:Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html
Which can also be found for free on the internet. Which means the restriction policy and charging high prices are totally useless.... Charge a normal price and you'd probably have less downloads and people likely to buy a hard copy.
Malcolm
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Malcolm »

conebeckham wrote:Right. I'm referring to Shambhala's edition of the Treasury of Esoteric Instructions.
http://www.shambhala.com/books/buddhism ... tions.html

Yes, this was published before the LTC's text was published, and the slob bshad is considered more profound. The LTC's book also has a complete commentary on the Vajra verses, written by Sachen.

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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Motova »

conebeckham wrote:I can see both sides of the issue, personally.
Recently we had a thread about eating feces as Mahamudra practice. Lifted from Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra

Bottom of the page...

"Drinking Sexual Fluids
Sexual fluids (rakta and śukra) are Mahāmudrā in physical form. When you ingest sexual fluids consciously, you set off the sympathetic vibrations between sexual fluids and Great Bliss, and you spontaneously attain nondual awareness. Accordingly, the Hevajra Tantra instructs practitioners of Mahāmudrā to drink sexual fluids daily. In addition, in the ritual of Tasting the Nectar of Immortality (Amṛita Āsvādana) taught by Śabara, you take the sexual fluids generated by your lovemaking and place them into a cup of alcohol containing the pure substances of the Five Nectars: 1) feces, 2) urine, 3) human flesh, 4) female sexual fluids, and 5) male sexual fluids. You mix them together, blessing the drink with the dhāraṇī mantra of the deity, and ingest them, triggering an experience of Mahāmudrā."

That's gross. Makes me want to steer clear of Mahamudra... Is there anything else like this in Tibetan Buddhism? :o
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by kirtu »

Motova wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I can see both sides of the issue, personally.
Recently we had a thread about eating feces as Mahamudra practice. Lifted from Wiki.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahamudra

Bottom of the page...

"Drinking Sexual Fluids...

That's gross. Makes me want to steer clear of Mahamudra... Is there anything else like this in Tibetan Buddhism? :o
Well don't take initiation with the Hindu sadhus ... :stirthepot:

Tibetan Buddhism is *full* of this stuff. However the meaning is not literal, except when it is. The Wikipedia article is taken out of context, for the most part. As Cone mentioned in that thread, this is one reason why secret practices are secret - they can be misunderstood, taken out of context and always need to be taught from guru to disciple.

Suffice it to say that most people will never practice something like this.

Kirt
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Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
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Pero
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Re: Zabmo Nangdon to be published by Shambhala

Post by Pero »

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:I'm not disagreeing, Malcolm--but, for instance, His Holiness Sakya Trizin is said to be the source of restrictions for the Lam Dre volume. It is the lamas who are the source of the restrictions. I'm just pointing this out for all readers.

Lamdre is an unrestricted download, and all the most essential Lamdre instructions (slob bshad) have been freely published with HHST's blessings as part of the Library of Tibetan Classics.
Looks interesting but do you think it would be of any use to someone like me who doesn't practice/hasn't received Lamdre?

Tom wrote:
conebeckham wrote:Just an FYI, saw that Elizabeth Callahan has translated this, along with Kongtrul's commentary, and it will be available as a restricted text in September from Shambhala. Website says you must have completed ngondro, have had pointing out instructions, and be practicing HYT yidam under the guidance of a qualified lama.
This is great news.I actually support the publishing of certain books with restrictions since I think it encourages people to get instruction from lineage masters. But, I guess soon It will be a pdf on the internet and people will be quoting from it on dharmawheel!
That is funny because I think it totally depends on the person. Me, it doesn't have that effect at all. I don't see why I would run to receive some instruction that I don't know anything about. On the other hand if I were able to read something and found it interesting, then I certainly would try to get the transmission. Perfect example is "Buddhahood without meditation". If I hadn't read it I wouldn't be interested in getting that particular transmission (and there was an oppurtunity last year but alas my circumstances sucked and I couldn't go).
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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