You Are Already Enlightened

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Palzang Jangchub
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You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

Guo Gu wrote:The Chan tradition does not usually refer to steps or stages. Its central teaching is that we are intrinsically awake; our mind is originally without abiding, fixations, and vexations, and its nature is without divisions and stages. This is the basis of the Chan view of sudden enlightenment. If our mind’s nature were not already free, that would imply we could become enlightened only after we practiced, which is not so. If it’s possible to gain enlightenment, then it’s possible to lose it as well.

Consider a room, which is naturally spacious. However we organize the furniture in the room will not affect its intrinsic spaciousness. We can put up walls to divide the room, but they are temporary. And whether we leave the room clean or cluttered and messy, it won’t affect its natural spaciousness. Mind is also intrinsically spacious. Although we can get caught up in our desires and aversions, our true nature is not affected by those vexations. We are inherently free.

In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practicing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others in the room.
Read the full article here:
http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/web-arch ... tened.html
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
disjointed
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by disjointed »

So,...
this is an example of a message that is lost in translation?

Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
Obviously that did not carry over into the English because this is an unintelligible mish mash of 1000 distinct definitions being translated into the catch all "enlightenment".
If there is a radical inconsistency between your statements and the position you claim to hold,
you are a sock puppet.
Make as many accounts as you want; people can identify your deception with this test.
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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Palzang Jangchub »

Guo Gu is also known as professor Jimmy Yu at Florida State University. He has a Ph.D. from Stanford, and grew up in the punk/straight-edge scene in New York.

I know that he's spent a good deal of time in Taiwan, but he is a Chinese-American with an excellent grasp of English. Pretty sure Guo Gu wrote the article in English himself, so what was lost if I may ask?
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
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oushi
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by oushi »

Guo Gu wrote:The difference between delusion and enlightenment is only a moment away.
This is from the same article. Although, I mostly agree with what is written there, I see inconsistency which clearly shows deficiency in understanding (mine or his).
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Wayfarer »

The difference between delusion and enlightenment is only a moment away.
Unfortunately, considering the immense time-spans of temporal existence, 'a moment' might be of considerable duration.

The other point is, this talk is situated in the context of serious commitment. The sentence preceding the one quoted is 'You might ask, “I’ve been practicing for ten years now—exactly when is this going to hap­pen to me?” '

So I think it is a lesson about abandoning expectations, about expecting to get something. Whereas, I think if it taken to mean that I am already enlightened, then it can easily be misconstrued as a kind of short-cut. Whereas, to quote Huang-Po, another ancient Zen luminary:
Even if you understand this, you must make the most strenuous of efforts.
So, I think - excellent article, easily misconstrued. That perhaps is why a teacher is necessary.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
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oushi
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by oushi »

Expectations are built out of meaning. Wrong meaning will always bring wrong expectations. No meaning liberates expectations.
We can explain it without contradicting ourselves. To say: we are already enlightened... one step away; undoubtedly brings confusion, and I assume that most people will suspect some mysterious meaning that fulfills both requirements, that is revealed to them after 10 years or so.
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by DGA »

disjointed wrote:So,...
this is an example of a message that is lost in translation?

Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
Obviously that did not carry over into the English because this is an unintelligible mish mash of 1000 distinct definitions being translated into the catch all "enlightenment".
Much of that nuance is contextual--the same term is used in again and again in different contexts, producing different meanings that are difficult to translate. The character "li" for instance, usually translated as "principle," is a good example of this.

http://www.fas.nus.edu.sg/philo/iw/reso ... n%20Li.pdf

Meanwhile, this is recommended if you can find it at a library on the relation between original enlightenment and the need for practice:

http://www.amazon.com/Cultivating-Origi ... 0824830768
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Kaccāni
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Kaccāni »

oushi wrote:
Guo Gu wrote:The difference between delusion and enlightenment is only a moment away.
This is from the same article. Although, I mostly agree with what is written there, I see inconsistency which clearly shows deficiency in understanding (mine or his).
Given that only the moment is experienced, it can either be clear or deluded. The next moment may be either. And the next. And the next.

Best wishes
Gwenn
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
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Grigoris
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Grigoris »

Gwenn Dana wrote:Given that only the moment is experienced, it can either be clear or deluded. The next moment may be either. And the next. And the next.

Best wishes
Gwenn
So where does this moment end and the next one begin?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Anders
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Anders »

disjointed wrote: Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
I would not characterise Chan like that in a million years.
"Even if my body should be burnt to death in the fires of hell
I would endure it for myriad lifetimes
As your companion in practice"

--- Gandavyuha Sutra
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Kaccāni
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Kaccāni »

Sherab Dorje wrote:So where does this moment end and the next one begin?
What do you mean with "next"?
Shush! I'm doing nose-picking practice!
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garudha
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by garudha »

if the poison is ignorance of ones enlightenment,
then the antidote would be enlightenment of ones ignorance.
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by kirtu »

disjointed wrote:So,...
this is an example of a message that is lost in translation?
No, this is the standard Chan/Zen position.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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WuMing
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by WuMing »

Wayfarer wrote:
The difference between delusion and enlightenment is only a moment away.
... The other point is, this talk is situated in the context of serious commitment. The sentence preceding the one quoted is 'You might ask, “I’ve been practicing for ten years now—exactly when is this going to hap­pen to me?” '

So I think it is a lesson about abandoning expectations, about expecting to get something. Whereas, I think if it taken to mean that I am already enlightened, then it can easily be misconstrued as a kind of short-cut. Whereas, to quote Huang-Po, another ancient Zen luminary:
Even if you understand this, you must make the most strenuous of efforts.
So, I think - excellent article, easily misconstrued. That perhaps is why a teacher is necessary.
I quite agree with that!

I would like to quote here from an article by Taigen Dan Leighton "Dogen's Zazen as Other-Power-Practice" were he wrote:

"Practice is the effect of realization, rather than its cause."

This followed a quote from Dogen's text Gakudo Yojinshu - Guidelines for Studying the Way which says:
A practitioner should not practice buddha-dharma for his own sake, to gain fame and profit, to attain good results, or to pursue miraculous power. Practice only for the sake of the buddha-dharma.
Towards the end of his article Ven Guo Gu writes:
Remember that practice is much more than following a particular method or going through stages on a path.
Life is great and death has to be just as great as life.
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Bonko
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Bonko »

I have read some of Guo Gu's words previously, and I think he is an excellent teacher of Zen/Chan for people in the West. The article in the OP is spot on and reminds me of Huang Po's writings. Essentially, there is no enlightenment to be attained, since we already are our own true nature. I like the cluttered room analogy - see through the mental dross and our true nature will shine through.

Bonko
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

disjointed wrote: So,...
this is an example of a message that is lost in translation?

Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
Obviously that did not carry over into the English because this is an unintelligible mish mash of 1000 distinct definitions being translated into the catch all "enlightenment".
Actually, I find it very intelligible.
Anders wrote:
disjointed wrote: Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
I would not characterise Chan like that in a million years.
Agreed completely.
steve_bakr
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by steve_bakr »

Karma Jinpa wrote:
Guo Gu wrote:The Chan tradition does not usually refer to steps or stages. Its central teaching is that we are intrinsically awake; our mind is originally without abiding, fixations, and vexations, and its nature is without divisions and stages. This is the basis of the Chan view of sudden enlightenment. If our mind’s nature were not already free, that would imply we could become enlightened only after we practiced, which is not so. If it’s possible to gain enlightenment, then it’s possible to lose it as well.

Consider a room, which is naturally spacious. However we organize the furniture in the room will not affect its intrinsic spaciousness. We can put up walls to divide the room, but they are temporary. And whether we leave the room clean or cluttered and messy, it won’t affect its natural spaciousness. Mind is also intrinsically spacious. Although we can get caught up in our desires and aversions, our true nature is not affected by those vexations. We are inherently free.

In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practicing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others in the room.
My understanding of both Huang Po and "The Supreme Source," a Dzogchen root text, is that, although we may speak of enlightenment and non-enlightenment, both concepts--which necessitate each other as opposites--are both illusory. Neither exist in reality, although both may be spoken of as learning aids.

According to Huang Po, all opposites must be dispensed with through the cessation of conceptual thought. According to the "Supreme Source," in reality enlightenment does not exist. According to Huang Po, talking of enlightenment is to be caught up in conceptual thought. Nevertheless, he may have used enlightenment as a learning aid, because conventional (dualistic?) thinking requires it.

Here is something I have not been able to reconcile. Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

Huang Po says the cessation of conceptual thought requires great effort. According to the Dzogchen root text, effort only creates more suffering in Samsara. Which is correct? Somebody please tell me and explain why.
Answers:

Huang Po is correct--here in the Zen/Chan forum.

"The Supreme Source" is correct--in the Dzogchen forum.

At least that's according to the ToS. :rules:

If you ask me in "Exploring Buddhism" I'll have to admit I don't know. :shrug:
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by dreambow »

"In the Chan tradition, therefore, practice is not about producing enlightenment. You might wonder, “Then what am I doing here, practicing?” Because practice does help clean up the “furniture” in the “room.” By not attaching to your thoughts, you remove the furniture, so to speak. And once your mind is clean, instead of fixating on the chairs, tables, and so on, you see its spaciousness. Then you can let the furniture be or rearrange it any way you want—not for yourself, but for the benefit of others in the room"
Ok not for yourself.....but I'm not sure about the benefit of others in the room? In the true non dual spirit, where are the others?
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Re: You Are Already Enlightened

Post by tingdzin »

Anders wrote:
disjointed wrote: Last time I checked Cha'an was a highly eloquent school that had no trouble clearly laying out it's doctrine.
I would not characterise Chan like that in a million years.
Wow, me neither. Amazing that someone could so conceive of it.
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