You mean the Indian Buddhist tantric texts, right? There is no such equation with Candalas in the Hindu texts. Perhaps the Buddhist tantric tradition aimed at lower castes, but not the Hindu tantric tradition which has clear Vedic roots, was not confined to outcastes and in fact could only be practiced by those were not animalistic in disposition. I don't think there is a very strong case for the tantras aiming to convert outcastes. With a few notable exceptions, there is a preponderance of highly educated primarily twice-born practitioners that are the lineage gurus. It's a very complicated system ritually, liturgically and philosophically.Malcolm wrote: The Indian texts refer to Candalas explicitly. Anyway, the main point is that Indian commentators identified HYT has being for Shaivaites and lower cast people who liked booze, meat and sex.
Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
- Karma Dorje
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Yes, this is what we are talking about.Karma Dorje wrote:You mean the Indian Buddhist tantric texts, right?Malcolm wrote: The Indian texts refer to Candalas explicitly. Anyway, the main point is that Indian commentators identified HYT has being for Shaivaites and lower cast people who liked booze, meat and sex.
- Karma Dorje
- Posts: 1416
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Actually the particular point we were discussing is whether you can make the claim that Shaiva/Shakta equates to lower castes, which it clearly does not.Malcolm wrote:Yes, this is what we are talking about.Karma Dorje wrote:You mean the Indian Buddhist tantric texts, right?Malcolm wrote: The Indian texts refer to Candalas explicitly. Anyway, the main point is that Indian commentators identified HYT has being for Shaivaites and lower cast people who liked booze, meat and sex.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Ok, for the sake of discussion let us concede the point--at least for the moment. (That is not how it has been presented to me.) What then are the implications?Malcolm wrote:Yes, this is what we are talking about.Karma Dorje wrote:You mean the Indian Buddhist tantric texts, right?Malcolm wrote: The Indian texts refer to Candalas explicitly. Anyway, the main point is that Indian commentators identified HYT has being for Shaivaites and lower cast people who liked booze, meat and sex.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
I am not making the claim, I am point out how Indian Buddhists schematized the conversion roles of the four classes of Tantra, and they clearly equate the worship of Siva etc., with lower castes. Do recall that most of the people who were writing these texts were upper class Indians, not necessarily from Buddhist families.Karma Dorje wrote:
Actually the particular point we were discussing is whether you can make the claim that Shaiva/Shakta equates to lower castes, which it clearly does not.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Lower tantra a) is not effective in this day and age. B) lower tantra is not effective for barbarians, indeed the Cakrasamvara tantra explicitly states that if you want liberation, and you are a barbarian, you better rely Yogini.smcj wrote: Ok, for the sake of discussion let us concede the point--at least for the moment. (That is not how it has been presented to me.) What then are the implications?
M
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
(B) It does. Nonetheless (A & B) I have found lower tantra effective.Malcolm wrote:Lower tantra a) is not effective in this day and age. B) lower tantra is not effective for barbarians, indeed the Cakrasamvara tantra explicitly states that if you want liberation, and you are a barbarian, you better rely Yogini.smcj wrote: Ok, for the sake of discussion let us concede the point--at least for the moment. (That is not how it has been presented to me.) What then are the implications?
Unless of course by "effective" you mean "lead to full enlightenment by itself". What I have found effective is strengthening morality. I have also found purification to be effective.
And traditionally the first Sakya retreat begins with Vajrapani Buttadhamara which is a lower tantra practice if I am not mistaken (although I could be because Sakya teachers do not always say what level of tantra something is). And some other lower tantra practices were definitely taught by my lama and he thought them effective.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
-
- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Ah. So we are talking about how "...Indian Buddhists schematized the conversion roles of the four classes of Tanta…" With that information I am able to come to terms with the discussion without discomfort. (edit: With review of this thread that info was available pages ago. D'oh!)Malcolm wrote: I am not making the claim, I am point out how Indian Buddhists schematized the conversion roles of the four classes of Tantra, and they clearly equate the worship of Siva etc., with lower castes. Do recall that most of the people who were writing these texts were upper class Indians, not necessarily from Buddhist families.
Thanks.
Also, FWIW, I am of the opinion that the lower tantras are effective in this day and age, and for barbarians as well. Since I do not have a practice that currently includes the higher tantras they'd better be!
Last edited by Schrödinger’s Yidam on Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Bhutadamara practiced in Sakya comes from the Vajrapanjara tantra, so it is HYT.kirtu wrote:
And traditionally the first Sakya retreat begins with Vajrapani Buttadhamara which is a lower tantra practice if I am not mistaken...
Kirt
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Wait, is anyone saying lower tantra is not effective because it was originally intended for Shaiva followers, lower castes etc?Malcolm wrote:Lower tantra a) is not effective in this day and age.
I can see how one might conclude that the lower tantras are less effective than the higher tantras, but I cannot see that they are ineffective.
Sonam Tsemo says in the Tantra Sets Presentation that the lower tantras are distinct from paramitayana in that they have blessing and gazing/smiling at the deity, which makes them more similar to the higher tantras than to the paramitas. But nothing is said to be ineffective.
I guess I am asking - what does effectiveness mean here?
- Losal Samten
- Posts: 1591
- Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Lower tantra was for the brahmins with their focus on purity and ritual. They're said to be ineffective for reaching Buddhahood because this is the Kali Yuga where ritual, purity and the blessings that come with such methods are weakened in this time.sherabpa wrote:Wait, is anyone saying lower tantra is not effective because it was originally intended for Shaiva followers, lower castes etc?Malcolm wrote:Lower tantra a) is not effective in this day and age.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Loppon Rinpoche states:sherabpa wrote:Wait, is anyone saying lower tantra is not effective because it was originally intended for Shaiva followers, lower castes etc?Malcolm wrote:Lower tantra a) is not effective in this day and age.
I can see how one might conclude that the lower tantras are less effective than the higher tantras, but I cannot see that they are ineffective.
Sonam Tsemo says in the Tantra Sets Presentation that the lower tantras are distinct from paramitayana in that they have blessing and gazing/smiling at the deity, which makes them more similar to the higher tantras than to the paramitas. But nothing is said to be ineffective.
I guess I am asking - what does effectiveness mean here?
Therefore, followers of the Pāramitāyāna do not accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age, but followers of Secret Mantra do accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age. The Herukābhyadaya also states:
- If one upholds Śrī Heruka,
There will be accomplishment in the decadent age.
There is no Śrī Heruka in lower tantra.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
The lower tantras belong to Secret Mantra, and hence siddhis are attained. As Sapan says in sdom gsum 3.262:Malcolm wrote: Loppon Rinpoche states:
Therefore, followers of the Pāramitāyāna do not accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age, but followers of Secret Mantra do accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age. The Herukābhyadaya also states:
- If one upholds Śrī Heruka,
There will be accomplishment in the decadent age.
There is no Śrī Heruka in lower tantra.
Now I believe it is said somewhere that only though anuttaratantra will one attain mahamudra siddhi in a single lifetime. Supposing that is true, this is quite different to saying the lower tantras are ineffective, or pointless.Nonetheless, on the level of action tantra
accomplishment may be obtained
by meditating on a painted image of the deity:
pleased by one's observance of austerity and cleanliness
the Buddha will bestow his attainments.
It is also worth noting that the kriya and charya tantras are often practiced, as Loppon Rinpoche says, in the manner of the yoga tantras, and this is quite appropriate, i.e. as a self-generation, rather than the practitioner remaining in ordinary form and using a painted image.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
The Samputa states:sherabpa wrote:The lower tantras belong to Secret Mantra, and hence siddhis are attained. As Sapan says in sdom gsum 3.262:Malcolm wrote: Loppon Rinpoche states:
Therefore, followers of the Pāramitāyāna do not accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age, but followers of Secret Mantra do accomplish [awakening] in this degenerate age. The Herukābhyadaya also states:
- If one upholds Śrī Heruka,
There will be accomplishment in the decadent age.
There is no Śrī Heruka in lower tantra.
Now I believe it is said somewhere that only though anuttaratantra will one attain mahamudra siddhi in a single lifetime. Supposing that is true, this is quite different to saying the lower tantras are ineffective, or pointless.Nonetheless, on the level of action tantra
accomplishment may be obtained
by meditating on a painted image of the deity:
pleased by one's observance of austerity and cleanliness
the Buddha will bestow his attainments.
- None of the eighty four thousand Dharmaskandhas
have any result since the true state of the body is not understood.
Now then, Ngorchen does clarify in his commentary on kriya tantra that the most a person can aspire to with kriya tantra practice is the tenth bhumi:
- "The result accomplished in one life of anuttaratantra is only the perfect Buddhahood of the three inseparable kāyas; here, having relied on the three paths, one can manifest the tenth stage in this [life] and with that support, Buddhahood can be accomplished."
- But in kriya tantra, because there is no teaching of taking siddhis apart from (40/a) inviting and creating the deity in front, the speed with which the result is accomplished is slight. The difference with Pāramitāyāna is very important, in that in [Pāramitāyāna] not even taking siddhis from a deity invited in front is ever taught.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
But Shingon has yogatantra too which is said to bring Buddhahood in one life?
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Indeed. But unless you are a priest, your practice is mainly confined to the liturgical practice of reciting a few mantras and so on.Sherlock wrote:But Shingon has yogatantra too which is said to bring Buddhahood in one life?
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Yet nobody says the lower tantra path is as easy as the higher tantra path. Lack of difficulties is precisely one of four superiorities of tantra over paramitayana, and by implication of the higher over the lower paths. There is superior and inferior, but not effective and ineffective, and superior means the four superiorities. E.g. Loppon Sonam Tsemo on the superiority of methods:Malcolm wrote: The Samputa states:
Since the true state of the body is not taught outside of highest yoga tantra, etc., well then, I leave you to your own conclusions.
- None of the eighty four thousand Dharmaskandhas
have any result since the true state of the body is not understood.
Now then, Ngorchen does clarify in his commentary on kriya tantra that the most a person can aspire to with kriya tantra practice is the tenth bhumi:
He also explains that even so, the path of kriya tantra is quite slow:
- "The result accomplished in one life of anuttaratantra is only the perfect Buddhahood of the three inseparable kāyas; here, having relied on the three paths, one can manifest the tenth stage in this [life] and with that support, Buddhahood can be accomplished."
Further, the difficulty with kriya tantra is that it is very precise and requires absolute adherence to ritual purity and so on. This is quite difficult to maintain unless you are in a place like Koyasan, etc. For all of these reasons then it is safe to say that for the most part we can consider kriya tantra ineffective in this day and age (which was my point), which also explains why outside of Shingon and Tendai, no one practices it anymore. There is also the consideration of which yuga a given teaching is most effective or needed, and in this yuga, the kali yuga, annuttarayoga tantra is a desiderata.
- But in kriya tantra, because there is no teaching of taking siddhis apart from (40/a) inviting and creating the deity in front, the speed with which the result is accomplished is slight. The difference with Pāramitāyāna is very important, in that in [Pāramitāyāna] not even taking siddhis from a deity invited in front is ever taught.
It is a reference to the siddhis these deities bestow a superior method that is absent on the paramita path.For Guhyamantra, there are immeasurable methods of accomplishment sadhanas such as Manjushri and Vasudhara which can be accomplished without difficulty and become a support for the bodhi-mind.
When he says that only Guyhamantra is appropriate for the present times, he is not referring to 2014 or to any specific place such as Koyasan, but to the Kali Yuga. This is very clear. In Sakya, it is held that Sachen achieved realization in dependence upon Manjushri and Achala in the degenerate age.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
Here, Guhyamantra does not mean lower tantra.sherabpa wrote: When he says that only Guyhamantra is appropriate for the present times...
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
superior = more effectivesherabpa wrote:
Yet nobody says the lower tantra path is as easy as the higher tantra path. Lack of difficulties is precisely one of four superiorities of tantra over paramitayana, and by implication of the higher over the lower paths. There is superior and inferior, but not effective and ineffective, and superior means the four superiorities.
inferior = less effective
higher = more effective
lower = less effective
easy = more effective
difficult = less effective.
Re: Dr. Sanderson: Phowa etc. are directly from Saivism
In the Chinese community I see Lamas teaching everything from the point of view of lower tantra. Tsok are vegetarian. And monks and nuns attend. The sutra influence is very strong. As is the whole super polite chinese culture. These are like upper castes. The words bliss of union are used but not explained and no one understands what is being said. When I bring it up, people act annoyed. They want to go back to imagining they are in league with flowery jewel covered dharma princes. There are many American Jews involved too. They have a strong Hinayana attitude.
Around the American hippies I know, they love to discuss tantra, but not seriously. They just love to hear themselves sound interesting. hYT doesn't reverse their predilections it reinforces them. Very few will ever get seriously into it. It's just for Nyingma lamas. I don't know a single practitioner seriously engaged in consort. Finding a suitable consort these days is something like a fantasy. I know one can go really high with the wisdom mudra and then a karma mudra will manifest like they did for Milarepa. But that is beyond rare.
In the case of the wrathful and funerary deities, everyone can understand dealing with death. Everyone gets real around that. I feel Dzogchen Ati style is most useful today. It deals scientifically with death and makes it clear how karma works in our life. It makes it obvious what liberation is instead of being lost in symbolism that mostly has nothing to do with our world. Especially the paths of natural visions of the bardo are very deep and undeniable amd appeal for our preference for I will believe it if I see it. Consort Vajrayana is basically over.
Around the American hippies I know, they love to discuss tantra, but not seriously. They just love to hear themselves sound interesting. hYT doesn't reverse their predilections it reinforces them. Very few will ever get seriously into it. It's just for Nyingma lamas. I don't know a single practitioner seriously engaged in consort. Finding a suitable consort these days is something like a fantasy. I know one can go really high with the wisdom mudra and then a karma mudra will manifest like they did for Milarepa. But that is beyond rare.
In the case of the wrathful and funerary deities, everyone can understand dealing with death. Everyone gets real around that. I feel Dzogchen Ati style is most useful today. It deals scientifically with death and makes it clear how karma works in our life. It makes it obvious what liberation is instead of being lost in symbolism that mostly has nothing to do with our world. Especially the paths of natural visions of the bardo are very deep and undeniable amd appeal for our preference for I will believe it if I see it. Consort Vajrayana is basically over.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.