Who's truth is it anyway ?

Casual conversation between friends. Anything goes (almost).
User avatar
garudha
Posts: 718
Joined: Fri Feb 07, 2014 4:33 am
Location: UK

Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by garudha »

One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:
User avatar
Ayu
Global Moderator
Posts: 13254
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 8:25 am
Location: Europe

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Ayu »

garudha wrote:...
How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

How could it be the other way round in a world of percepted illusions? The rainbowbubble "truth" bursts as soon as you try to grip it.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Grigoris »

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:
Because they are not the truth, they are just ignorant opinions. So, good luck with your "truth".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Jesse »

Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind. There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth. If there is such a thing as truth, it's likely were far too immature to deal with it.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Jesse »

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?

Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.

That's my truth. Have a nice day. :heart:
Anyway, we all need our personal truths to keep us going, I hope you found something profound. :namaste:
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
User avatar
Hieros Gamos
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Hieros Gamos »

Jesse wrote:no such thing as one single truth
True.
User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 21938
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Grigoris »

You know what the word Dharma means?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
User avatar
明安 Myoan
Former staff member
Posts: 2855
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by 明安 Myoan »

We may be missing the forest for the trees, guys.
My impression is garudha was talking about the intimacy of personal truth versus some sterile idea that we hear secondhand. Too often, "truth" is divorced from lived experience.
In fact, in US culture at least, the less "truth" has to do with human experience, the more authority it gets!

In terms of the dharma, I think it's a rather matter of suffering, not solely a matter of truth, thank goodness.
Too often, the truth is really just rationalizing habits of selfishness.
I've personally found "wise" and "foolish" to be a more useful framework than true/false.

Anyway, that's my two cents' worth of nonsense on the matter. :zzz:
Namu Amida Butsu
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Jesse »

Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?
It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
ovi
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by ovi »

garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?
You should read the Kalama Sutta again.
garudha wrote: Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.
That means refusing to learn anything from someone else. If science worked this way, we'd still be in the stone age.
Jesse wrote:Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind.
That's just false. The truth is the description of reality. There's nothing subjective in a physical formula, conservation of momentum for instance is a law of the universe we live in (based on a certain symmetry of it). It's not complete in itself, but it is based on something real about the universe. From a scientific point of view, you can talk about instrumentalism or scientific realism for instance.
Jesse wrote:There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth.
There is a single truth about the nature of existence. There are many things yet to be discovered in fundamental physics, but the truth of the nature of existence is unchanging (that is impermanence, dukkha and anatta/sunyata).
Jesse wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?
It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.
Yet if you stop clinging to any views and actually try to understand the nature of existence, you come to realize that Buddhist teachings to indeed get you to higher levels of realization, hence the ability to have trust in the Dharma without clinging to any views.
Jesse
Posts: 2127
Joined: Wed May 08, 2013 6:54 am
Location: Virginia, USA

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Jesse »

ovi wrote:
garudha wrote:One person declares "I have the truth".
Another hundred say "Your truth is a fabrication"
Yet another thousand think "these fools know nothing but delusion"

How can this be?
How can there be as many versions of the truth as grains in a bushel?
You should read the Kalama Sutta again.
garudha wrote: Because the truth resides inside our own self and we must discover ourselves.
That means refusing to learn anything from someone else. If science worked this way, we'd still be in the stone age.
Jesse wrote:Truth is subjective thing, a fabrication of the human mind.
That's just false. The truth is the description of reality. There's nothing subjective in a physical formula, conservation of momentum for instance is a law of the universe we live in (based on a certain symmetry of it). It's not complete in itself, but it is based on something real about the universe. From a scientific point of view, you can talk about instrumentalism or scientific realism for instance.
Jesse wrote:There are truths, but no such thing as one single truth.
There is a single truth about the nature of existence. There are many things yet to be discovered in fundamental physics, but the truth of the nature of existence is unchanging (that is impermanence, dukkha and anatta/sunyata).
Jesse wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:You know what the word Dharma means?
It may mean spiritual truth, but have you actually found any truths? The only thing I've found is that the more I cling to needing truths or some static view of the world, the more I suffer.
Yet if you stop clinging to any views and actually try to understand the nature of existence, you come to realize that Buddhist teachings to indeed get you to higher levels of realization, hence the ability to have trust in the Dharma without clinging to any views.
I'm pretty sure many of your laws of physics would cease to work in a black hole, or potentially in another part of the universe. So, physical laws are subjective. Does the universe even exist without life or consciousness to perceive it? You can't say yes or no, because it's unanswerable.

I said there are 'truths', plural, not a single truth. If impermanence is an unchanging truth, then why do thing's never become permanent? Kind of paradoxical.

Shrug. Whatever
Image
Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream.
User avatar
Hieros Gamos
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:25 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Hieros Gamos »

Without renunciation, no stable method. Without method, no wisdom. Without wisdom, no living in awareness. Them's the breaks.
ovi
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by ovi »

Jesse wrote: I'm pretty sure many of your laws of physics would cease to work in a black hole, or potentially in another part of the universe. So, physical laws are subjective.
The laws of physics still hold in a black hole. Plus, that has nothing to do with subjectivity...
Jesse wrote: Does the universe even exist without life or consciousness to perceive it? You can't say yes or no, because it's unanswerable.
That doesn't make the truth subjective.
Jesse wrote: I said there are 'truths', plural, not a single truth. If impermanence is an unchanging truth, then why do thing's never become permanent? Kind of paradoxical.
Because they are impermanent. There is no contradiction.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by LastLegend »

The only Dharma is Buddharma of Dharmakaya of emptiness. Anything else is the method.
It’s eye blinking.
User avatar
Gnosis984
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2014 6:04 am
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Gnosis984 »

To me, Truth represents Dharmakya, as best a word can. Talking of Truth can be dangerous. By applying words, feelings, etc to abstract concepts, it is important to not cling to our perception of that concept, no matter how subtle an abstraction. I find mysellf continuously realizing, while lost in thought, that I am again stuck in duality chasing words.
Arjan Dirkse
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:53 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Arjan Dirkse »

Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.

Nevertheless we hold our opinions and beliefs to be true, at least when we have enough faith in them. Opinions are not worthless, they're what make us human.
ovi
Posts: 102
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:06 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by ovi »

Arjan Dirkse wrote:Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.
Then it's irrelevant. However, there is nothing subjective in a rock falling to the ground, subjectivity and objectivity actually mean something.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by LastLegend »

Gnosis984 wrote:To me, Truth represents Dharmakya, as best a word can. Talking of Truth can be dangerous. By applying words, feelings, etc to abstract concepts, it is important to not cling to our perception of that concept, no matter how subtle an abstraction. I find mysellf continuously realizing, while lost in thought, that I am again stuck in duality chasing words.
A common problem. For me, it's no longer a problem of clinging to concept of truth. It's more of a faith or doubt problem on and off. But I've come to an understanding that I am the non-realized Dharma, Truth myself. The difference between a Buddha and a sentient being is one is truly realized and the other is deluded.

Linjii, Do you wish to be not different from the Buddhas and patriarchs? Then just do not look for anything outside. The pure light of your own heart [i.e., 心, mind] at this instant is the Dharmakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-differentiating light of your heart at this instant is the Sambhogakaya Buddha in your own house. The non-discriminating light of your own heart at this instant is the Nirmanakaya Buddha in your own house. This trinity of the Buddha's body is none other than he here before your eyes, listening to my expounding the Dharma.
It’s eye blinking.
Arjan Dirkse
Posts: 198
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:53 pm

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by Arjan Dirkse »

ovi wrote:
Arjan Dirkse wrote:Subjective truths are "mere" opinions, and there are many of those. Objective truth is unknowable, or at least unverifiable.
Then it's irrelevant. However, there is nothing subjective in a rock falling to the ground, subjectivity and objectivity actually mean something.
Of course we can assume with a fair degree of certainty that rocks do fall to the ground occasionally, that does not mean we know objective truth. We filter the world through our senses, intuitions, biases, and knowledge. That makes everything we think or feel or perceive subjective.

There is an objective truth "out there" (and in here), and our subjective truth ideally strives to approximate objective truth. But they are never the same thing. Objective truth is reality, subjective truth is its interpretation in our mind.
User avatar
LastLegend
Posts: 5408
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:46 pm
Location: Northern Virginia

Re: Who's truth is it anyway ?

Post by LastLegend »

In my understanding, we embody the objective truth of non-self interconnected nature of all things. Upon analysis, everything is interconnected through dependent relationship. There is not a thing or mental event that exists independently by itself. This Dharma is the objective truth. We embody this Dharma, and everything else also embodies this Dharma. Dharmakaya refers to this realized nature/Dharma, known as Buddha. Sentient beings are ones who have not realized this Dharma/Dharma Body of all phenomena.

Conceptually we can see that, "He who sees Dhamma sees Tathagata, He who sees Tathagata sees Dhamma." So Dharma is Buddha, and Buddha is Dharma. Sentient beings are Dharma, and Dharma are sentient beings, except we have not realized Dharma. So we are not called true Buddha.

To me, this is not so abstract at least not anymore. The only abstract "thing" is our awareness but it's always present right in front of us. We don't have to look for it. But this awareness is not an independent entity by itself because if it would not be empty and considered a thing. It's not separate from appearances/forms/bodies. Within awareness, there is appearance. Within appearance, there is awareness. This non-separation is the nature, Dharma. When separated in the case of heavenly mind only beings, it is due to false view/delusion.
It’s eye blinking.
Post Reply

Return to “Lounge”