Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

BuddhaFollower
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote: To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.
Maybe.
What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?

Even the earliest account of Padmasambhava, the Testament of Ba, is highly mythological.

We know nothing about the historical Padmasambhava.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
Natan
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Natan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Yes. Absolutely, Tantra came onto a scene and jujitsu'ed it, Indian medieval warlord culture, brahminism and crazy aceticisms). Then did that to the Tibetan one, when fighting with mountain ghosts became a thing. IOW, it is always about cutting through acculturation. Now why I wanted to get into the original mood of the thing is because this is a exactly what the Tibetan tantrics are not doing for the West, but are doing for China.
How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Natan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: How are they doing it for China?
Amitovo :anjali: :anjali: :anjali: and the whole sutra slash lower Tantra style seems to mesh we'll with them
Well, maybe I didn't understand what you were saying. How is that "cutting through acculturation"? I think you mean something more like "working skillfully with acculturation". In that case, I think there are indeed some Tibetan tantrics who are at least trying to do that for the West, but it's a much trickier thing IMO.
Yes skillfully jujitsu the shit. It's trickier bc the whole thing needs to be reassessed out here. Western civ has a world view expressed down to the grammar level. It's all about action. It's very tactile and objective. And individualistic. Everyone gets a trophy, because everyone won in their own way. Everyone's a Jesus. So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Natan »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:So we need like the Elusian mysteries. It must seem like they found it themselves.
*cough* LSD *cough*
Maybe. Not all whites are hippies you u racist. Some of them even love their children.
Good point. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by florin »

Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower »

florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Kris »

I'm a silly crazy westerner, I only want the fastest most immediate and direct recipe.
I don't care aboutevery page in the cookbook.
I'm hungry now.
:P :P :cheers: :guns: :P :P :crazy:

:focus:
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florin
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by florin »

BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower »

florin wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:
florin wrote:Are there any vestiges of dzogchen teachings outside of tibet ?
What i dont understand is how such influential figures like Garab dorje, Manjushrimitra Shir Singha , Padmasambava etc, the forefathers of dzogchen teachings,...who were all non-tibetans, never succeded in developing a non-tibetan tradition...
You don't understand these are mythological figures.

There may have been real-life counterparts, but we know nothing about them.
So who is the author or authors who manufactured these mythological figures ?
Tertons.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Queequeg »

BuddhaFollower wrote: Tertons.
One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by dzogchungpa »

Queequeg wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote: Tertons.
One of the funniest most awesome things I've read today.

As an outsider looking in, Tibetan Buddhism, in a lot of ways, is freaking awesome.

Sorry to interject.
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There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Malcolm »

Karma_Yeshe wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Karma_Yeshe wrote: To the way things are presented: I mean the "Garland of Views" is not taught by a Tibetan, but by Padmasambhava.
Maybe.
What makes you question the Padmasambahva's authorship?
Lack of provenance.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Norwegian »

To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by BuddhaFollower »

Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by conebeckham »

Yep.
And some reject Kalacakra.
Some reject all Tantra, entirely.

Some reject Mahayana Sutras.

We should all know this by now, right?


Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Sādhaka »

BuddhaFollower wrote:
Norwegian wrote:To Nyingma - and Dzogchen masters over time - there was no doubt about these masters and their careers. To Western scholars, they are nothing more than myths and a footnote in an academic paper put into a shelf somewhere. In terms of "history", it's rather relative, and it depends on who you ask in many cases. That's OK.
It is traditional to reject these terma myths.

Bonpos reject the sectarian myths of Guru Rinpoche purifying Bon.

Gelugs also used to reject terma myths.
I don't think that anyone said that he purified Bön.

What has been said is that Guru Rinpoche further established the Bön that was already pure.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Dzogchen?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

conebeckham wrote:
Personally, I reject only strange women lying in ponds distributing swords--you know, farcical aquatic ceremonies and such.
:rolling:
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