Guru Yoga

[Dorjé Samten]

It seems that a form of guru yoga, different from the Ngondro one, exists.
Would you have any information about it ?
Thnks a lot

[pemachophel]

After completing the ngondro, one can then go on to the Three Roots -- Guru, Deva/Yidam, and Dakini. So a longer, more elaborate Guru Yoga is what you commonly do first after ngondro. In some terma cycles, there are several different levels of Guru yoga. For instance, in Longchen Nyingthig, the Guru yoga in the ngondro is the outer Guru yoga, Rigdzin Dupa is the inner Guru yoga, Dugngal Rangdrom is the secret Guru Yoga, and Ladrub Thigle Gyachen is the even more secret Guru yoga. The Yuthok Nyingthig also has four different levels of Guru yoga.

In addition, many particular Teachers have there own Guru yoga. For instance, there is a Guru yoga for Garchen Rinpoche. Perhaps you've heard of Him. I'm just thinking of Him because He is so well known. In terms of other examples, there are Guru yogas for Sera Khandro, Jetsun Shuksep, Rinchen Pal, Chokyi Gocha, Orgyen Tenzin Rinpoche, Milarepa, Gampopa, the Karmapa, Machik Lapdron, Phadampa Sangay. The list goes on and on.

Further, the wisdom mind of all Deities is nothing other than the wisdom mind of one's own Root Guru. Therefore, some Teachers say that all sadhanas are essentially Guru yoga.

Don't know if that helps or makes it all more confusing.

Good luck & best wishes.

[conebeckham]

Just to add to PemaChopel's words....

In the Rinchen Terdzo, the section on "Guru Principle" comes first in the Sadhana section, Immediately after the Tantra section, which is first. From this section, there are further subdivisions of the Lama or Guru section, for Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, and Nirmanakaya sadhanas. Various forms of Guru Rinpoche are to be found here, as are LADrups or "guru sadhanas" of various other great masters.

These Sadhanas are often the next "practice intensives" for students who have completed ngondro, in many lineages. Many Dudjom Tersar specialists will practice "TsoKyi Thuk Tik" or "Lake Born Vajra" which is a practice of Guru Rinpoche as their daily recitation. Many dudjom Tersar practitioners and centers will also engage in this practice as a tsok puja on a monthly basis, on the days dedicated to Guru Rinpoche in the Tibetan calendar.

For Longchen Nyingthik practitioners, this would likely be Rigdzin Dupa. Others do "Shower of Blessings," or "KonChok ChiDu," or a whole host of other LaDrups. Some centers mix it up. And outside the various Nyingma centers, there are Guru practices in all lineages--from Sakya's Unbreakable Guru Yoga, to Kagyu's Marpa, Mila, Gampopa, Karmapa Guru yogas and Guru Sadhanas, to Gelukpa's Migtsema, etc., etc.

Also, in addition to the comments Pemachopel made about all practices being essentially Guru practices, most complete sadhanas in the Sarma systems will also have a "guru yoga" section included.

Guru Yoga never ends. It is the essence of Vajrayana Buddhist practice, in truth.

[Dorjé Samten]

A lot of thanks to both of you!
I am a Longchen Nyingthik practitioner and have completed the Ngondro since more than one year. My lama told me he will teach me another form of guru yoga. At first, I answered that I have finished this practice and he added that it was a different practice, without more details.
Generaly speaking, I feel confused about the dharma progression. Our lama provides us teachings during some week-ends like tsik soum ne dek, namkha Soum Trouk, etc., but he says that these teachings are just to give us an idea. The practice must take place during a retreat with a lama.
Then I often wonder what I must do now, after the Ngondros and it is the reason why I asked him.
Now I begin to understand better.
Thak you again.

[pemachophel]

It's wonderful that you have done the Longchen Nyingthig ngondro. Does your Lama have you doing some specific practice(s) now? If not, personally, I would recommend continuing with accumulating the ngondro. If you did 100,000 long Vajrasattva mantra, even better is to accumulate 1 million. If you accumulated 100,000 Vajra Guru mantra, even better is to accumulate 1 million 300,000, and better yet 10 million (actually 11 million counting "overages" or amendments). Some Longchen Nyingthig practitioners would say this is the "real" way to do this ngondro.

Yes, some Longchen Nyingthig Lamas require all accumulations of the Three Roots to happen during retreat. This is a very traditional way of doing this and there are sound, practical reasons for this, although this is not so easy outside the Himalayas.

Good luck & best wishes.

[conebeckham]

Yes, some Longchen Nyingthig Lamas require all accumulations of the Three Roots to happen during retreat. This is a very traditional way of doing this and there are sound, practical reasons for this, although this is not so easy outside the Himalayas.

It's the same in the Kagyu, traditionally. Pretty rare to be exposed to the full "3 roots" practices outside of a retreat, in Kagyu lineage--likely more rare than, for instance, full Vajrakilaya instruction at most Nyingma centers.

I echo Pemachophel's advice--continue practicing what you know, but take the opportunity to learn the next practice. Those "teachings" you are talking about are integral with ngondro and the three roots, it sounds like you are being prepared with the View, and engaging in a LaDrup or other sadhana practice will benefit from the training you're being given, and from continuing to do ngondro. But don't listen to me, I'm just a crappy would-be practitioner!

[Dorjé Samten]

Well, I started the Ngondros with Chepa Dorje Rinpoche. I took the vows of bodhisattvas with him. He told me that when I finish to accumulate Ngondros he will give me another practice. But just before I finish he died. Then I continued to accumulate Ngondros day and night and practice shine during thousands of hours because he told me several times that Ngondros are not "preliminary practices" but can be practiced all along my life, that shine was a main practice even if it was not the main one. Beside this, the way of bodhisattvas is a huge schedule as well.
After his death, his friend, lama Kunga, took his place and gave us teachings. I told him my story, what happened to me. You know what followed.
To speak frankly, I accumulated a lot and I reached a point where I consider that Ngondros are not only preliminaries. They are much more. It depends on how you approach them. They go with the bodhisattvas way. But, you also progessively realize that you need something deeper.

[Dorjé Samten]

I forgot to thank you. I am sorry for my poor english and hope I can make myself understood.

[heart]

Well, I started the Ngondros with Chepa Dorje Rinpoche. I took the vows of bodhisattvas with him. He told me that when I finish to accumulate Ngondros he will give me another practice. But just before I finish he died. Then I continued to accumulate Ngondros day and night and practice shine during thousands of hours because he told me several times that Ngondros are not "preliminary practices" but can be practiced all along my life, that shine was a main practice even if it was not the main one. Beside this, the way of bodhisattvas is a huge schedule as well.
After his death, his friend, lama Kunga, took his place and gave us teachings. I told him my story, what happened to me. You know what followed.
To speak frankly, I accumulated a lot and I reached a point where I consider that Ngondros are not only preliminaries. They are much more. It depends on how you approach them. They go with the bodhisattvas way. But, you also progessively realize that you need something deeper.

I am afraid you need to find a new Guru. Someone you trust wholeheartedly. Then you can request full instructions and transmissions according to the Longchen Nyingtik. There is a lot more to do: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... n_Nyingtik

/magnus

[tingdzin]

There are four guru yogas in the Longchen Nyingthig. The first, the outer, is what you have done with the ngondro. Traditionally, one does 1,200,000 repetitions of the guru mantra for this. The second is the Rigdzin Dupa, the inner sadhana, which is an excellent practice, and may be what your late teacher was talking about. Guru Rinpoche is still the focus, but the orientation is different. The third is Dugngal Rangdrol, based on a form of Chenrezi, the secret sadhana ( and not easy to find these days), and the fourth is Thigle Gyachen, the very secret, based on Longchenpa/ Vimalamitra.

[rai]

why there is inner Guruyoga? is it kind of higher/bringing faster results then the outer? or is the outer not complete in some sense?

if anyone could direct me to some books which cover that topic... thanks!

[tingdzin]

In the Longchen Nyingthig tradition, at least, there is a change of perspective with each practice from the "outer" to the "very secret" guru yoga, which leads organically to the most profound perspective, which is found in the latter. It is not that one is "better" than another. A lot of people feel that they may just as well start with the most profound level and just do that, but this may not be optimal in terms of actually getting the intended results rather than just blindly counting the numbers and thinking one therefore has accomplished the practice.

[tingdzin]

P.S. These perspectives are better experienced through actual practice than read about in books.

[florin]

In the Longchen Nyingthig tradition, at least, there is a change of perspective with each practice from the "outer" to the "very secret" guru yoga, which leads organically to the most profound perspective, which is found in the latter. It is not that one is "better" than another. A lot of people feel that they may just as well start with the most profound level and just do that, but this may not be optimal in terms of actually getting the intended results rather than just blindly counting the numbers and thinking one therefore has accomplished the practice.

Since "very secret" points to our real nature, to rest in that is the authentic refuge of a dzogchen practitioner and is preferable above any other form of guru yoga. When one discovers this secret level of refuge, one's real nature , one has discovered the ultimate guru, the real teacher.

[tingdzin]

Since "very secret" points to our real nature, to rest in that is the authentic refuge of a dzogchen practitioner and is preferable above any other form of guru yoga. When one discovers this secret level of refuge, one's real nature , one has discovered the ultimate guru, the real teacher.

Nice talk. Perhaps not useful advice for an obvious beginner.

[florin]

Since "very secret" points to our real nature, to rest in that is the authentic refuge of a dzogchen practitioner and is preferable above any other form of guru yoga. When one discovers this secret level of refuge, one's real nature , one has discovered the ultimate guru, the real teacher.

Nice talk. Perhaps not useful advice for an obvious beginner.

Among beginners we find many who have a very good capacity to understand what is the essence of the teaching.However capacity means more than just understanding something intellectually. Ultimately it means that one can rest in the oral transmission connecting with one's real nature via the simbolic transmission, the experiences of one's aggregates.

In the end a beginner's capacity to comprehend and apply the instructions is treated differently in different systems.

[heart]

In the Longchen Nyingthig tradition, at least, there is a change of perspective with each practice from the "outer" to the "very secret" guru yoga, which leads organically to the most profound perspective, which is found in the latter. It is not that one is "better" than another. A lot of people feel that they may just as well start with the most profound level and just do that, but this may not be optimal in terms of actually getting the intended results rather than just blindly counting the numbers and thinking one therefore has accomplished the practice.

Since "very secret" points to our real nature, to rest in that is the authentic refuge of a dzogchen practitioner and is preferable above any other form of guru yoga. When one discovers this secret level of refuge, one's real nature , one has discovered the ultimate guru, the real teacher.

Yes, but once you have discovered the ultimate guru it really doesn't matter if you do outer, inner or secret guru yoga, it is all the same.

/magnus

[Kelwin]

Yes, but once you have discovered the ultimate guru it really doesn't matter if you do outer, inner or secret guru yoga, it is all the same.

/magnus

This is a crucial point, missed by many who practice their so-called Dzogchen.

[conebeckham]

Yes, but once you have discovered the ultimate guru it really doesn't matter if you do outer, inner or secret guru yoga, it is all the same.

/magnus

This is a crucial point, missed by many who practice their so-called Dzogchen.

Seconded.

[Dorjé Samten]

You are right tingzin, I am a beginner like all of us until enlightement no ? Unless you are a master ? I just practiced a so long time ngondros, nothing else and I learnt from thi that there is a huge gap between getting an intellectal knowledge and putting it into practice. It's quite easy to undrestand the texts but staying one-pointed is another story. I will never be an expert in buddhism because I will probably give up this path. Too much people judging others instead of developing love, joy, compassion and equanimity as it is said in the books. How can we speak of sangha? I strongly believe that love, joy, compassion and equanimity are the key to liberation. It is that simple. Until we can definitely realize this, we can read all the books of the universe, it doesn't help because the ground is impure, because we keep trapped in samsara, because our mind continues to be greedy and cannot let go. It is not calm enough to say spontaneously Emaho! And realize its true nature. Then we can read again and again tsi soum nedek, we will not be able to say phat spontaneously. We can try to practice yoga rigdzin, no way. We can try nam mkha' sum phrug, it doesn't work anymore. These are only means. If there is not a good heart, it is useless . Then, please, be kind. I am just a beginner asking questions. Thank you