Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Can anyone enlighten me on where Dzogchen stands relative to the Two Truths Doctrine? I have come across the view that there is only a "single truth" in Dzogchen? Moreover, did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths? My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
The two truths do not exist for Dzogchen. As the Soaring Garuda states:manjusri wrote:Can anyone enlighten me on where Dzogchen stands relative to the Two Truths Doctrine? I have come across the view that there is only a "single truth" in Dzogchen? Moreover, did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths? My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).
- Since phenomena and nonphenomena have always been merged and are inseparable,
there is no further need to explain an “ultimate phenomenon.”
- Therefore, because awakening and nonawakening are the same in terms of absence of characteristics, there is nothing to accept or reject.
In accordance with that meaning, all those explanations
of the nominal ultimate, the absence of arising and ceasing, sameness,
nonduality, beyond thought, emptiness, the dharmadhātu,
freedom from expression and convention, and so on are neither ultimate nor relative.
If it is said, “This is the path in accordance with the ultimate,” that is relative.
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
manjusri wrote:Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?
It is necessary for any discussion of the vehicles of cause and result.
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
When existence is not established nonexistence is not established and thus there is no nihilism into which one could fall.manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
If I can add (possibly superflously) to the above excellent replies, in ordinal mind there are no extremes, so no 'middle way' between extremes.manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
That should have read 'original mind'..
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Malcolm wrote:When existence is not established nonexistence is not established and thus there is no nihilism into which one could fall.manjusri wrote:A follow-up question: given that the two truths don't exist in Dzogchen, can one even say that there is a path to realizing rigpa or beings who attain it? How does one hold onto the Middle Way here without falling into nihilism?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
To my knowledge, the historical Buddha never taught this. The sutta you mentioned kind of makes this clear:manjusri wrote:did the historical Buddha teach some variant of the two truths?
"By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
As far as I can see it was his own interpretation, rather than the original Buddha's - unless anyone knows otherwise?My understanding is that Nagarjuna based his doctrine on the words of the historical Buddha (Kaccayanagotta Sutta).
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Which 'original Buddha'?
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Do you mean Samantabhadra?srivijaya wrote: As far as I can see it was his own interpretation, rather than the original Buddha's - unless anyone knows otherwise?
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Them's fightin' words on this DW, friend. Tread carefully.srivijaya wrote:historical Buddha
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Truly dzogchen -atiyoga- is not a doctrine. Since is not a doctrine, there is no "subdoctrines" nor any need for them.manjusri wrote:Thank you Malcolm. So, generally, a Dzogchen teacher would not even teach this doctrine to his/her students?
There are only a few precepts and groups of methods related to those precepts, organized with specific purposes related to their specific application. Nothing else is needed in the conceptual level.
I'm no authority, nor hold any ultimate knowledge, but is evident that atiyoga has nothing to do with an idea nor a piece of paper. Maybe that's why a Rigdzin is needed hahahahaha
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
Agreed.Malcolm wrote:As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.
Please do as Malcolm said if you are interested.
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.Malcolm wrote:As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":If we follow a Lama who has wisdom mind, he will be able to introduce the fundamental nature without using any concepts, and without our having to think about it or become involved in any idea of it as anything at all. We will experience it directly. Without any concept at all, we will understand the Dzogchen view.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
While I have the utmost respect for Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche, and have no doubt that he is a Vidyadhara, this is just silly. He is not the only one alive today.Malcolm wrote: While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings.
Re: Dzogchen and the Two Truths Doctrine
You are missing the point, my friend. What I am saying is that people chase after this sadhana and that sadhana and miss the chance to meet a great master. There was once this guy who went to Nepal, and because he did not know who Tulku Orgyen was, missed a chance to go see him because he was more interested in Lamdre. I think you know who I am talking about.heart wrote:I think you limit yourself in an unnecessary way there Malcolm, in fact I know you do.Malcolm wrote:As Javier says, we need to meet a Vidyādhara. While there are many good teachers alive today, there is only only one living Vidyādhara of Dzogchen teachings. Everyone better meet him while they still have the chance if they are truly interested in Dzogchen teachings. Everyone one else can stick with their sadhanas, mālas, vajras, and bells.dzogchungpa wrote:As Thinley Norbu says in "Echoes":
/magnus
M