Refuge vows

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Aspiring.Monk
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Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi All,

While I have not officially taken refuge, I try to hold the refuge vows as best as I can. I have a question about the No Intoxicants vow.

Caffeine is considered an intoxicant as it has an altering effect on the brain. Should I refrain from caffeine to better hold this vow?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

:namaste:

crazy-man
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby crazy-man » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:15 am

the shila is
Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drinks, liquors, wines, and other intoxicants that causes heedlessness (and manipulate the mind).

if you have health problems and you use Caffeine as a medicine, it is okay. but if you use Caffeine to change and manipulate your mind and consciousness, it is against the rules.

Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Bristollad » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:06 am

Almost all food "has an altering effect on the brain" so this vow means something different from that.

As Crazy-man pointed out, it is about abandoning using substances (particularly but not exclusively alcohol) that cause heedlessness; that intoxicate. When we are heedless, we act without thought or attention. When we are intoxicated, we are excited or stupefied to the point that physical and mental control are affected.

If caffeine has these affects on you then perhaps you should avoid it but for most people it doesn't.

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Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Thank you for the replies.

You have clarified the issue for me. I am not using caffeine for medicine nor does it make me heedless. Like most Americans, I enjoy coffee and was worried that the caffeine was an issue. I was prepared to switch to decaf if there was an issue.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:26 pm

Middle way bro

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Grigoris
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Grigoris » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:53 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:Middle way bro
??? :shrug: ???

Care to clarify what you mean by this statement?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:18 pm

Think about it

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:42 pm

crazy-man wrote:
if you have health problems and you use Caffeine as a medicine, it is okay. but if you use Caffeine to change and manipulate your mind and consciousness, it is against the rules.



Nonsense. Caffeine is a merely a stimulant. Sheesh.
Atikosha
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So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

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crazy-man
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby crazy-man » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:04 am

Caffeine can have both positive and negative health effects. It can treat and prevent the premature infant breathing disorders bronchopulmonary dysplasia of prematurity and apnea of prematurity. Caffeine citrate is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines.[12] It may confer a modest protective effect against some diseases,[13] including Parkinson's disease[14] and certain types of cancer. One meta-analysis concluded that cardiovascular disease such as coronary artery disease and stroke is less likely with 3–5 cups of non-decaffeinated coffee per day but more likely with over 5 cups per day.[15] Some people experience insomnia or sleep disruption if they consume caffeine, especially during the evening hours, but others show little disturbance. Evidence of a risk during pregnancy is equivocal; some authorities recommend that pregnant women limit consumption to the equivalent of two cups of coffee per day or less.[16][17] Caffeine can produce a mild form of drug dependence – associated with withdrawal symptoms such as sleepiness, headache, and irritability – when an individual stops using caffeine after repeated daily intake.[1][3][5] Tolerance to the autonomic effects of increased blood pressure and heart rate, and increased urine output, develops with chronic use (i.e., these symptoms become less pronounced or do not occur following consistent use)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Bristollad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:52 am

Personally I avoid too much coffee because:

  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)

But I love a nice cup of tea!

Soma999
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Soma999 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:52 pm

Do you seriously think taking caffeine is an insult to the Buddha ?

A certain rule appears at a moment for a reason, then it becomes a dogma.

Everything is mind altering. Not only food, beverage, but TV, books, computer, movie, high altitude, it all change moods by altering inner chemistry.

Things need to be placed into a context. For exemple, restrain from drugs, but don't become an "extremist".

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:57 pm

crazy-man wrote:
Caffeine can have both positive and negative health effects. It can treat and prevent the premature infant breathing disorders bronchopulmonary dysplasia of prematurity and apnea of prematurity. Caffeine citrate is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines.[12] It may confer a modest protective effect against some diseases,[13] including Parkinson's disease[14] and certain types of cancer. One meta-analysis concluded that cardiovascular disease such as coronary artery disease and stroke is less likely with 3–5 cups of non-decaffeinated coffee per day but more likely with over 5 cups per day.[15] Some people experience insomnia or sleep disruption if they consume caffeine, especially during the evening hours, but others show little disturbance. Evidence of a risk during pregnancy is equivocal; some authorities recommend that pregnant women limit consumption to the equivalent of two cups of coffee per day or less.[16][17] Caffeine can produce a mild form of drug dependence – associated with withdrawal symptoms such as sleepiness, headache, and irritability – when an individual stops using caffeine after repeated daily intake.[1][3][5] Tolerance to the autonomic effects of increased blood pressure and heart rate, and increased urine output, develops with chronic use (i.e., these symptoms become less pronounced or do not occur following consistent use)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine



If you do not want to drink coffee, fine. But it is not an intoxicant, a madana.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

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Grigoris
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Grigoris » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:53 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:Think about it
Thanks, but I'll pass. I'm not going to waste any more time with it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Lobsang Chojor » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:02 pm

Bristollad wrote:Personally I avoid too much coffee because:

  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)

But I love a nice cup of tea!

Great we just prove another British stereotype :twothumbsup:

I've heard though that tea contains a chemical which makes you use the toilet more
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
    Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5

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Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:48 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Bristollad wrote:Personally I avoid too much coffee because:

  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)

But I love a nice cup of tea!

Great we just prove another British stereotype :twothumbsup:

I've heard though that tea contains a chemical which makes you use the toilet more


There are times, where I enjoy tea much more than coffee and I am not British.

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:47 pm

Abandoning intoxicants is just alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, don't worry about caffeine.

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Abandoning intoxicants is just alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, don't worry about caffeine.


Not even tobacco is included since it is not intoxicating, since nicotine is a stimulant, like caffeine.

However, because many treasure texts were revealed that condemned its use, it has come to be considered something negative in Tibetan Buddhism.

Fully ordained monks in Theravada countries however smoke quite a lot.

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Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


So called “sentient beings” are merely delusions self-appearing from the dhātu of luminosity.

-- Ju Mipham

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:37 am

No caffeine and no non-caffine

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Losal Samten
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Losal Samten » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:12 am

Malcolm wrote:Not even tobacco is included since it is not intoxicating, since nicotine is a stimulant, like caffeine.

Is amphetamine a madana?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:32 am

maybe intoxicant means something that provokes our distraction, every thing that we cannot handle in presence.

edit: if a monk is mendicant, how can he be a smoker?


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