Refuge vows

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Aspiring.Monk
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Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Tue Jan 10, 2017 8:02 pm

Hi All,

While I have not officially taken refuge, I try to hold the refuge vows as best as I can. I have a question about the No Intoxicants vow.

Caffeine is considered an intoxicant as it has an altering effect on the brain. Should I refrain from caffeine to better hold this vow?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

:namaste:

crazy-man
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby crazy-man » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:15 am

the shila is
Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drinks, liquors, wines, and other intoxicants that causes heedlessness (and manipulate the mind).

if you have health problems and you use Caffeine as a medicine, it is okay. but if you use Caffeine to change and manipulate your mind and consciousness, it is against the rules.

Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Bristollad » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:06 am

Almost all food "has an altering effect on the brain" so this vow means something different from that.

As Crazy-man pointed out, it is about abandoning using substances (particularly but not exclusively alcohol) that cause heedlessness; that intoxicate. When we are heedless, we act without thought or attention. When we are intoxicated, we are excited or stupefied to the point that physical and mental control are affected.

If caffeine has these affects on you then perhaps you should avoid it but for most people it doesn't.

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Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:33 pm

Thank you for the replies.

You have clarified the issue for me. I am not using caffeine for medicine nor does it make me heedless. Like most Americans, I enjoy coffee and was worried that the caffeine was an issue. I was prepared to switch to decaf if there was an issue.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:26 pm

Middle way bro

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Grigoris
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Grigoris » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:53 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:18 pm

Think about it

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 11:42 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

crazy-man
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Refuge vows

Postby crazy-man » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:04 am


Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Bristollad » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:52 am


Soma999
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Soma999 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:52 pm

Do you seriously think taking caffeine is an insult to the Buddha ?

A certain rule appears at a moment for a reason, then it becomes a dogma.

Everything is mind altering. Not only food, beverage, but TV, books, computer, movie, high altitude, it all change moods by altering inner chemistry.

Things need to be placed into a context. For exemple, restrain from drugs, but don't become an "extremist".

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:57 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

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Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14670
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Refuge vows

Postby Grigoris » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:53 pm

"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Lobsang Chojor
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Location: England

Re: Refuge vows

Postby Lobsang Chojor » Thu Jan 12, 2017 6:02 pm


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Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Aspiring.Monk » Thu Jan 12, 2017 9:48 pm


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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Tsongkhapafan » Fri Jan 13, 2017 12:47 pm

Abandoning intoxicants is just alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, don't worry about caffeine.

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Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jan 13, 2017 2:51 pm





འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1462
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Refuge vows

Postby Fortyeightvows » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:37 am

No caffeine and no non-caffine

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Losal Samten
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby Losal Samten » Thu Jan 19, 2017 4:12 am

Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche


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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Refuge vows

Postby javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jan 19, 2017 5:32 am

maybe intoxicant means something that provokes our distraction, every thing that we cannot handle in presence.

edit: if a monk is mendicant, how can he be a smoker?


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