Refuge vows

Aspiring.Monk
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Refuge vows

Post by Aspiring.Monk »

Hi All,

While I have not officially taken refuge, I try to hold the refuge vows as best as I can. I have a question about the No Intoxicants vow.

Caffeine is considered an intoxicant as it has an altering effect on the brain. Should I refrain from caffeine to better hold this vow?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

:namaste:
crazy-man
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by crazy-man »

the shila is
Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi
I undertake the training rule to abstain from fermented drinks, liquors, wines, and other intoxicants that causes heedlessness (and manipulate the mind).

if you have health problems and you use Caffeine as a medicine, it is okay. but if you use Caffeine to change and manipulate your mind and consciousness, it is against the rules.
Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Bristollad »

Almost all food "has an altering effect on the brain" so this vow means something different from that.

As Crazy-man pointed out, it is about abandoning using substances (particularly but not exclusively alcohol) that cause heedlessness; that intoxicate. When we are heedless, we act without thought or attention. When we are intoxicated, we are excited or stupefied to the point that physical and mental control are affected.

If caffeine has these affects on you then perhaps you should avoid it but for most people it doesn't.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Aspiring.Monk »

Thank you for the replies.

You have clarified the issue for me. I am not using caffeine for medicine nor does it make me heedless. Like most Americans, I enjoy coffee and was worried that the caffeine was an issue. I was prepared to switch to decaf if there was an issue.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Middle way bro
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Grigoris
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Grigoris »

Fortyeightvows wrote:Middle way bro
??? :shrug: ???

Care to clarify what you mean by this statement?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Think about it
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Malcolm »

crazy-man wrote:
if you have health problems and you use Caffeine as a medicine, it is okay. but if you use Caffeine to change and manipulate your mind and consciousness, it is against the rules.

Nonsense. Caffeine is a merely a stimulant. Sheesh.
crazy-man
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by crazy-man »

Caffeine can have both positive and negative health effects. It can treat and prevent the premature infant breathing disorders bronchopulmonary dysplasia of prematurity and apnea of prematurity. Caffeine citrate is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines.[12] It may confer a modest protective effect against some diseases,[13] including Parkinson's disease[14] and certain types of cancer. One meta-analysis concluded that cardiovascular disease such as coronary artery disease and stroke is less likely with 3–5 cups of non-decaffeinated coffee per day but more likely with over 5 cups per day.[15] Some people experience insomnia or sleep disruption if they consume caffeine, especially during the evening hours, but others show little disturbance. Evidence of a risk during pregnancy is equivocal; some authorities recommend that pregnant women limit consumption to the equivalent of two cups of coffee per day or less.[16][17] Caffeine can produce a mild form of drug dependence – associated with withdrawal symptoms such as sleepiness, headache, and irritability – when an individual stops using caffeine after repeated daily intake.[1][3][5] Tolerance to the autonomic effects of increased blood pressure and heart rate, and increased urine output, develops with chronic use (i.e., these symptoms become less pronounced or do not occur following consistent use)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine
Bristollad
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Bristollad »

Personally I avoid too much coffee because:
  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)
But I love a nice cup of tea!
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Soma999
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Soma999 »

Do you seriously think taking caffeine is an insult to the Buddha ?

A certain rule appears at a moment for a reason, then it becomes a dogma.

Everything is mind altering. Not only food, beverage, but TV, books, computer, movie, high altitude, it all change moods by altering inner chemistry.

Things need to be placed into a context. For exemple, restrain from drugs, but don't become an "extremist".
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Malcolm »

crazy-man wrote:
Caffeine can have both positive and negative health effects. It can treat and prevent the premature infant breathing disorders bronchopulmonary dysplasia of prematurity and apnea of prematurity. Caffeine citrate is on the WHO Model List of Essential Medicines.[12] It may confer a modest protective effect against some diseases,[13] including Parkinson's disease[14] and certain types of cancer. One meta-analysis concluded that cardiovascular disease such as coronary artery disease and stroke is less likely with 3–5 cups of non-decaffeinated coffee per day but more likely with over 5 cups per day.[15] Some people experience insomnia or sleep disruption if they consume caffeine, especially during the evening hours, but others show little disturbance. Evidence of a risk during pregnancy is equivocal; some authorities recommend that pregnant women limit consumption to the equivalent of two cups of coffee per day or less.[16][17] Caffeine can produce a mild form of drug dependence – associated with withdrawal symptoms such as sleepiness, headache, and irritability – when an individual stops using caffeine after repeated daily intake.[1][3][5] Tolerance to the autonomic effects of increased blood pressure and heart rate, and increased urine output, develops with chronic use (i.e., these symptoms become less pronounced or do not occur following consistent use)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

If you do not want to drink coffee, fine. But it is not an intoxicant, a madana.
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Grigoris
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Grigoris »

Fortyeightvows wrote:Think about it
Thanks, but I'll pass. I'm not going to waste any more time with it.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Lobsang Chojor »

Bristollad wrote:Personally I avoid too much coffee because:
  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)
But I love a nice cup of tea!
Great we just prove another British stereotype :twothumbsup:

I've heard though that tea contains a chemical which makes you use the toilet more
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  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
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Aspiring.Monk
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Aspiring.Monk »

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Bristollad wrote:Personally I avoid too much coffee because:
  1. it makes me have to use the toilet more often
  2. puts me to sleep (I know, weird right!?)
But I love a nice cup of tea!
Great we just prove another British stereotype :twothumbsup:

I've heard though that tea contains a chemical which makes you use the toilet more
There are times, where I enjoy tea much more than coffee and I am not British.
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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Tsongkhapafan »

Abandoning intoxicants is just alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, don't worry about caffeine.
Malcolm
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Malcolm »

Tsongkhapafan wrote:Abandoning intoxicants is just alcohol, tobacco and recreational drugs, don't worry about caffeine.
Not even tobacco is included since it is not intoxicating, since nicotine is a stimulant, like caffeine.

However, because many treasure texts were revealed that condemned its use, it has come to be considered something negative in Tibetan Buddhism.

Fully ordained monks in Theravada countries however smoke quite a lot.

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Fortyeightvows »

No caffeine and no non-caffine
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Losal Samten
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by Losal Samten »

Malcolm wrote:Not even tobacco is included since it is not intoxicating, since nicotine is a stimulant, like caffeine.
Is amphetamine a madana?
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
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jet.urgyen
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Re: Refuge vows

Post by jet.urgyen »

maybe intoxicant means something that provokes our distraction, every thing that we cannot handle in presence.

edit: if a monk is mendicant, how can he be a smoker?
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