Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

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adinatha
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Re: Elements

Post by adinatha »

Namdrol wrote:
adinatha wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Ye shes bla ma is only sufficient to begin practice.
You're a funny guy. This is bullshit. There are oral instructions of Togal even briefer than this.
Yes, for example in Yangzab. As I said, insufficient for perfect understanding.
There's way briefer than that. Perfect understanding comes from practice and checking with the teacher. Books can only help somewhat. The texts maintain the transmission lineage. But when it comes to the nitty gritty it's all pretty bare bones.
CAW!
Enochian
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Re: Elements

Post by Enochian »

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Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Malcolm
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Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

***
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Enochian
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Re: Elements

Post by Enochian »

Namdrol wrote:Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Malcolm
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Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote:
Namdrol wrote:Reflection, reading and studying the most ancient Dzogchen texts is reflection. It is paramount.

N

So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
One can, but one will not be able to explain Dzogchen to others very well.

N
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Grigoris
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Re: Elements

Post by Grigoris »

Enochian wrote:So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Enochian
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Bothersome things about Vajrayana and Dzogchen

Post by Enochian »

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Malcolm
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Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:
Enochian wrote:So if one does not know Tibetan, one CANNOT practice Dzogchen to completion?
C'mon Enochian, it's high time you got your shit together and found yourself a teacher coz all this questioning of yours means nothing without practice (unless of course you are going to write a thesis about it all). Do yourself a favour: practice practice, practice!
:namaste:

There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.

Do tell.
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Grigoris
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Re: Elements

Post by Grigoris »

This needs a whole new thread!
:namaste:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Heruka
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Re: Elements

Post by Heruka »

Enochian wrote:
There are some things that bother me about Vajrayana and Dzogchen.
its counterintuitive anyway, so this is a normal perspective.
Enochian
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Re: Elements

Post by Enochian »

.....
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Heruka
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Re: Elements

Post by Heruka »

great stuff!

well done :applause:
Malcolm
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Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote: 1. One cannot realize rigpa without transmission. That implies Dzogchen is conditioned.
False implication. Rig pa is not the same as the basis. Rig pa is one's knowledge of the basis. That basis is perfectly complete.


2. I was working with chakras for my OBE and astral projection practice, before I even heard of "completion stage". You raise energy through your chakras in a trance state, and then you do a exit technique. No bullshit visualizations either, you just use body awareness and FEEL to manipulate the chakras. The chakras are already there, so why visualize? Where do you think you feel your emotions in your physical body?? The chakras.
I am very familiar with WET tradition, particularly the Crowleyan tradition. It is not even remotely the same.

N
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adinatha
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Re: Elements

Post by adinatha »

There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.
CAW!
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Grigoris
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Re: Elements

Post by Grigoris »

GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.
:namaste:
PS How can you say this
But I realized that western mysticism is a turd sandwhich.
and then adulate OBE? It seems kindda contradictory.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Enochian
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Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 8:19 pm

Re: Elements

Post by Enochian »

...
Last edited by Enochian on Mon May 16, 2011 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is an ever-present freedom from grasping the mind.

Mind being defined as the thing always on the Three Times.
Malcolm
Posts: 42974
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

adinatha wrote:There were so many illiterate enlightened masters. The studying part is small compared to listening and contemplation. It just seems big when you're stuck in your head.

Suit yourself. Just don't bother me with anymore questions. Thanks.
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Re: Elements

Post by Heruka »

Enochian wrote:
gregkavarnos wrote:GET A TEACHER! And not necessarily a Vajrayana or Dzogchen teacher.
BEFORE you get yourself into some real trouble! Trouble you will NOT be able to deal with.
:namaste:

To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

LOL

I don't understand why Namdrol thought I was a Crowley follower. Maybe because of my username? I only learned about western mysticism within the last couple of months, and came to the conclusion it was utter crap.

and there i was about to read the five magics....
Malcolm
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Re: Elements

Post by Malcolm »

Enochian wrote: To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!

Remind me not to answer your questions either.

N
Pero
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Re: Elements

Post by Pero »

Namdrol wrote:
Enochian wrote: To tell me more conditioned INFERIOR METHODS plus samaya?!
Remind me not to answer your questions either.
Well that took you long enough. Longer than you might know even. :rolling:
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
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