Guenther

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lukejmo
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Guenther

Post by lukejmo »

This isn't a book review, more of a book inquiry. Is Herbert Guenther a reliable translator? Are his books worth reading? His writing is so... ahem, unique. I haven't read much, but it seems he has some really valuable ways of looking at and translating things, interspersed with a lot of extra stuff. It seems his writings aren't popular because of his style, and not that he is a crackpot or anything. Comments? Caveats?
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Aemilius
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Re: Guenther

Post by Aemilius »

I think some people are just jealous of Herbert Guenther, he has translated important works in 1970's when there weren't that many others active (in translating tibetan Dharma) as there are now adays. He has been habitually put down by respected Dharma persons, which I have always felt bad about. Here is what Wikipedia says about him, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_V._G%C3%BCnther
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
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mindyourmind
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Re: Guenther

Post by mindyourmind »

Aemilius wrote:I think some people are just jealous of Herbert Guenther, he has translated important works in 1970's when there weren't that many others active (in translating tibetan Dharma) as there are now adays. He has been habitually put down by respected Dharma persons, which I have always felt bad about. Here is what Wikipedia says about him, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_V._G%C3%BCnther

I've also been quite uncomfortable with most of the criticism against HG. There seems, at times, to be something quite personal about some of the attacks against him.
Personally I think he did more good than anything else, and that he should be respected for that.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.

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mudra
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Re: Guenther

Post by mudra »

Guenther has an impressive resume for sure.

However I can barely add anything substantial to answer the OP's Q because I have never really read Guenther. Or more correctly, I have never finished a Guenther book.

I am posting in this thread because of what is a strange personal phenomena: Everytime I start reading one of Guenther's
works I end up with a massive headache, and have never made it past about 6 pages. It's very weird, I rarely get that kind of
block. Obviously it's me, but anybody have any insights?
:?
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conebeckham
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Re: Guenther

Post by conebeckham »

Well...I've read quite a bit of Guenther.
For a long time, he was the only show in town regarding seminal Karma Kagyu texts, like the "Jewel Ornament" of Gampopa, or texts relating to Naropa, etc.

First, he's an academic, and, from what I can tell, was never really a "practitioner" in the traditional sense. Second, he attempted to describe certain concepts using quasi-existentialist language. I personally find some of this distracting or confusing. In general, his style is anything but "colloquial."

Reading his stuff can be valuable, but you have to understand his bias, his "slant," as it were.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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kirtu
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Re: Guenther

Post by kirtu »

conebeckham wrote:Well...I've read quite a bit of Guenther.
For a long time, he was the only show in town regarding seminal Karma Kagyu texts, like the "Jewel Ornament" of Gampopa, or texts relating to Naropa, etc.
:twothumbsup:

We owe Guether a great debt. He can't be blamed for not being a better translator as he was one of the best Dharma translators of his age (IOW we can't blame him for not being born 40 or so years later). He began his dharmic studies in the late 30's - he was a kind of Indian Jones in this way [and exactly the right time!} and laid an essential foundation for the later florishing of Tibetan Buddhism in the west.
First, he's an academic, and, from what I can tell, was never really a "practitioner" in the traditional sense. Second, he attempted to describe certain concepts using quasi-existentialist language.
I think he was a practitioner for a German academic of his time. He couldn't get out of the thought enwrapment of academia and I'm pretty sure that his existentialist based language was his sincere attempt at upaya.


Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Wed May 25, 2011 6:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
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Re: Guenther

Post by DGA »

It may be that HV Guenther's best contributions to Buddhist culture in English have less to do with the content of the books he put out and more to do with elevating the view of Buddhist reasoning in English-language academic circles, teaching future teachers and translators, and provoking discussion that led to better work by others. Seems to me he's kind of a transition or "bridge" figure.

I liked "Matrix of Mystery" for what it's worth as an experiment in phenomenology. I don't know if it accurately presents Longchenpa's view, but it is a stimulating read just as-is.

EDIT: just read Kirt's post above mine. Agree 100% with it.
Malcolm
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Re: Guenther

Post by Malcolm »

kirtu wrote: I think he was a practitioner for a German academic of his time.
Kirt

he was not a practitioner in any sense at all. He himself even remarked that his books should not be considered representative of Dzogchen itself in anyway.
Jnana
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Re: Guenther

Post by Jnana »

Namdrol wrote:he was not a practitioner in any sense at all.
Indeed. According to a senior student of Trungpa Rinpoche, Trungpa considered Guenther to be a "buddhologist."

All the best,

Geoff
udawa
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Re: Guenther

Post by udawa »

Still, you can't knock the pioneers. Not really. And Guenther had a way of words, sometimes.

Thus one who by having taken refuge has become the site for spiritual growth
will cultivate his mind for the welfare of those who are alive by
letting the flower of Compassion blossom
in the soil of Love
and tending it with the pure water of Equanimity
in the cool shade of Joyfulness.

As long as these four cardinal agents are not linked to
the road to deliverance,
they are but euphoric states and remain the cause of delusion.

But if the way to inner peace has taken hold of them,
They are the four immeasurably great properties of
real being because they make us cross the ocean of delusion.


Always liked the line about euphoric states. On the other hand, 'immeasurably great properties of real being'... Oh well.

D
Edwards: You are a philosopher. Dr Johnson: I have tried too in my time to be a philosopher; but, I don't know how, cheerfulness was always breaking in.
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Luke
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Re: Guenther

Post by Luke »

His translation of Naropa's life story seemed quite convoluted and distorted to me. Has anyone else produced a better translation of Naropa's life story in English?
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conebeckham
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Re: Guenther

Post by conebeckham »

དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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kirtu
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Re: Guenther

Post by kirtu »

Luke wrote:His translation of Naropa's life story seemed quite convoluted and distorted to me. Has anyone else produced a better translation of Naropa's life story in English?
Really? It was that translation plus notes in the book that got me mistakenly thinking that he was a practitioner.

Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Aemilius
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Re: Guenther

Post by Aemilius »

kirtu wrote:
Luke wrote:His translation of Naropa's life story seemed quite convoluted and distorted to me. Has anyone else produced a better translation of Naropa's life story in English?
Really? It was that translation plus notes in the book that got me mistakenly thinking that he was a practitioner.

Kirt
What do you mean by "practitioner"? Have you since then developed the six abhijnas so that you now see the real mind and future and past of Herbert Guenther?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Silent Bob
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Re: Guenther

Post by Silent Bob »

Aemilius wrote:
kirtu wrote:
Luke wrote:His translation of Naropa's life story seemed quite convoluted and distorted to me. Has anyone else produced a better translation of Naropa's life story in English?
Really? It was that translation plus notes in the book that got me mistakenly thinking that he was a practitioner.

Kirt
What do you mean by "practitioner"? Have you since then developed the six abhijnas so that you now see the real mind and future and past of Herbert Guenther?
Dr Guenther lectured at the first summer session of Naropa Institute in the summer of 1974. At one point during the course a curious student asked the question that was on the minds of many of us; "Dr, may I ask if you have an ongoing Buddhist practice that you do?"
His response was, "I read these texts and translate them into English. That is my practice."

We must grant Dr Guenther his due as a pioneering lotsawa, even though I find most of his work is impenetrable because of his attempts to synthesize the specialized vocabularies of Buddhadharma and academic philosophy. His best effort, I think, was Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation", which I read and reread during the 70's and which still compares favorably to more recent translations by Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen and Ken Holmes. As for the other works of his that I've read, or tried to, MEGO (Mine Eyes Glazeth Over).

Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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Josef
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Re: Guenther

Post by Josef »

lukejmo wrote:This isn't a book review, more of a book inquiry. Is Herbert Guenther a reliable translator? Are his books worth reading? His writing is so... ahem, unique. I haven't read much, but it seems he has some really valuable ways of looking at and translating things, interspersed with a lot of extra stuff. It seems his writings aren't popular because of his style, and not that he is a crackpot or anything. Comments? Caveats?
Nothing against Herbert but I find him to be unreadable.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Guenther

Post by mañjughoṣamaṇi »

Chögyal Namkha'i Norbu's student-translator Jim Valby studied under Gunther in Saskatoon. He said that Gunther had no pretensions about being a practitioner. Jim once remarked that Gunther told him something to the effect that he could teach him what the texts say, but he would need to go elsewhere to learn what they mean.
སེམས་རྣམ་པར་གྲོལ་བར་བྱའི་ཕྱིར་བྱམས་པ་བསྒོམ་པར་བྱའོ།
“In order to completely liberate the mind, cultivate loving kindness.” -- Maitribhāvana Sūtra

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Re: Guenther

Post by alwayson »

Guenther is completely discredited nowadays.

Its not like his translations were even accurate.
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Aemilius
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Re: Guenther

Post by Aemilius »

During a normal working day you can practice all of the branches of the Noble Eightfold Path, that is to say: 1. Right view, 2. Right intention, 3. Right speech, 4. Right action, 5. Right livelihood, 6. Right effort, 7. Right mindfulness, & 8. Right concentration.
Practitioner of Shakyamuni's teaching is any person who follows naturally in his everyday life the noble eightfold path.
How can you say, or know what a person is? You can't, without the supranormal powers of a Buddha.
It is against the Mahayana to say that a person "is not a practitioner". If you say it of a sincere, committed person who has translated rare Dharma books for a wide circle of readers, it constitutes a serious infraction of Bodhisattva precepts.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Silent Bob
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Re: Guenther

Post by Silent Bob »

Silent Bob wrote: We must grant Dr Guenther his due as a pioneering lotsawa, even though I find most of his work is impenetrable because of his attempts to synthesize the specialized vocabularies of Buddhadharma and academic philosophy. His best effort, I think, was Gampopa's "Jewel Ornament of Liberation", which I read and reread during the 70's and which still compares favorably to more recent translations by Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen and Ken Holmes. As for the other works of his that I've read, or tried to, MEGO (Mine Eyes Glazeth Over).

Chris
I should mention that another of Dr Guenther's books which I've found useful and readable is "Mind in Buddhist Psychology", a Tibetan abhidharma text which he translated together with Leslie Kawamura.
http://www.dharmapublishing.com/product ... psychology" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
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