Electronic Dzogchen
- mindyourmind
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
- Location: South Africa
Electronic Dzogchen
The thread on the, um, superiority of Dzogchen has again brought this question to the fore in my mind. It is probably an unfair question, but here goes in any event.
I am a Kagyu practitioner, hard at work on my ngondro and Kagyu is going places here in my country, ie South Africa. Nothing to complain of, thank you.
I do however remember from the days of searching for a suitable path around here that I found out that there are a few Dzogchen practitioners in SA, and that they read the prescribed books and "attend" the webcasts.
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast? I really do not mean this in a disparaging manner, and my question is really not so much to do with Dzogchen as "Practicing X via books and webcasts". Surely it is a question of degree : use these tools as far as they will go but somewhere along the line one will have to get actual face-to-face teachings / transmissions?
I am quite comfortable with practicing an advanced Buddhist path via these tools up to a point, but then the actual teacher will need to take over at some stage ... or am I being too old-fashioned?
I am a Kagyu practitioner, hard at work on my ngondro and Kagyu is going places here in my country, ie South Africa. Nothing to complain of, thank you.
I do however remember from the days of searching for a suitable path around here that I found out that there are a few Dzogchen practitioners in SA, and that they read the prescribed books and "attend" the webcasts.
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast? I really do not mean this in a disparaging manner, and my question is really not so much to do with Dzogchen as "Practicing X via books and webcasts". Surely it is a question of degree : use these tools as far as they will go but somewhere along the line one will have to get actual face-to-face teachings / transmissions?
I am quite comfortable with practicing an advanced Buddhist path via these tools up to a point, but then the actual teacher will need to take over at some stage ... or am I being too old-fashioned?
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
mindyourmind wrote:
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast?
Yes.
- mindyourmind
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- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Would the student not reach a stage where s/he would have to get person-to-person teachings?Namdrol wrote:mindyourmind wrote:
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast?
Yes.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
mindyourmind wrote:Would the student not reach a stage where s/he would have to get person-to-person teachings?Namdrol wrote:mindyourmind wrote:
Now my question is really this : can one really be said to be practicing a path as sophisticated as Dzogchen via book and webcast?
Yes.
Define "person to person".
- mindyourmind
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
I'm aware that a webcast could qualify as "person to person", it just seems quite ...unusual.Namdrol wrote:
Define "person to person".
And btw, my apologies, Namdrol (and others) you seem to have answered all of my questions in the Dzogchen Community of CNN thread. I will go and read that
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
How does a live webcast differs from a record, if at all?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
- Dechen Norbu
- Posts: 3056
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
I had a good laugh when I read the title of this topic!
It's not Dzogchen that is electronic, neither it's practice. When I read it I thought I was going to be told about someone who claimed making a machine that when used would enhance or perform Dzogchen practice (a bit like electric prayer wheels). It sounded something like that.
The electronics involved only allow you to hear your teacher. The vocal cords and air, or pen and paper were the traditional means.Then, in big assemblies Lamas started to use microphones and speakers. The voice goes in, transformed in an electric signal, and it's again translated into sound when exiting the speakers. So what are we discussing really? The size of the wire?
Today we have other means that fulfill the same role shouting and microphones performed in the past, technology that allows more students to listen good teachings. Obviously, one can write to ChNN, go to retreats and approach him if necessary to clarify doubts. Perhaps one must be more selective with one's doubts, instead of approaching the lama to feed one's ego, show a little wisdom, or what have you, as I many times see people doing. Some don't actually have real questions which arise from of practice. They just want to approach the lama and show interest and study, hanging around a bit to feel previledged and so on and so forth, thus their reasons being quite different. This is not so easy in DC. In a way, it ends up working like a sort of a filter, where you really need to choose what questions should you ask and why. Even so I've heard that there are times when people waste Rinpoche's time with pointless questions he usually answers over and over again in his webcasts.
One gets the answers one needs in DC, don't worry and they allow practice perfectly. And the electronic part... it's just like a mic with speakers, the advantage being that you also have video and the wires go round the world. So you can always be listening to your teacher, you can ask him questions, you can listen to replays, you can read booklets and books, see Dvd or listen to CD about pretty much everything he teaches and so on and so forth. Plus, if you have financial possibilities, you can always travel and meet him as he visits a lot of places. It's a tremendous diversity of supporting methods, my friend. The electronics only help.
It's not Dzogchen that is electronic, neither it's practice. When I read it I thought I was going to be told about someone who claimed making a machine that when used would enhance or perform Dzogchen practice (a bit like electric prayer wheels). It sounded something like that.
The electronics involved only allow you to hear your teacher. The vocal cords and air, or pen and paper were the traditional means.Then, in big assemblies Lamas started to use microphones and speakers. The voice goes in, transformed in an electric signal, and it's again translated into sound when exiting the speakers. So what are we discussing really? The size of the wire?
Today we have other means that fulfill the same role shouting and microphones performed in the past, technology that allows more students to listen good teachings. Obviously, one can write to ChNN, go to retreats and approach him if necessary to clarify doubts. Perhaps one must be more selective with one's doubts, instead of approaching the lama to feed one's ego, show a little wisdom, or what have you, as I many times see people doing. Some don't actually have real questions which arise from of practice. They just want to approach the lama and show interest and study, hanging around a bit to feel previledged and so on and so forth, thus their reasons being quite different. This is not so easy in DC. In a way, it ends up working like a sort of a filter, where you really need to choose what questions should you ask and why. Even so I've heard that there are times when people waste Rinpoche's time with pointless questions he usually answers over and over again in his webcasts.
One gets the answers one needs in DC, don't worry and they allow practice perfectly. And the electronic part... it's just like a mic with speakers, the advantage being that you also have video and the wires go round the world. So you can always be listening to your teacher, you can ask him questions, you can listen to replays, you can read booklets and books, see Dvd or listen to CD about pretty much everything he teaches and so on and so forth. Plus, if you have financial possibilities, you can always travel and meet him as he visits a lot of places. It's a tremendous diversity of supporting methods, my friend. The electronics only help.
Last edited by Dechen Norbu on Mon May 30, 2011 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Astus wrote:How does a live webcast differs from a record, if at all?
A recording is not alive.
- Dechen Norbu
- Posts: 3056
- Joined: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:50 pm
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
In a live webcast you have simultaneously the intention to teach from the lama and the intention to receive the teachings from the students. In a record such is not simultaneous.
- mindyourmind
- Posts: 497
- Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:11 am
- Location: South Africa
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
I was hoping to raise a smile or twoDechen Norbu wrote:I had a good laugh when I read the title of this topic!
.
Dualism is the real root of our suffering and all of our conflicts.
Namkhai Norbu
Namkhai Norbu
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Namdrol,
So technically it is OK to have a recorded teaching, right? Then books are practically the same.
DN,
Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds.
So technically it is OK to have a recorded teaching, right? Then books are practically the same.
DN,
Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Astus wrote:Namdrol,
So technically it is OK to have a recorded teaching, right? Then books are practically the same.
DN,
Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds.
You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
There's a delay if you sit in person right next to the teacher too.Astus wrote: Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds.
Anyway, having received teachings and empowerments both in person and through webcast I can tell you there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission that I could see.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
That's why I ask what the difference is between a live webcast and its record. If no transmission is possible through a record what makes the live one special? IIRC there were video cassettes used before online transmission. But even if the teacher simultaneously takes part without being seen or heard by the student, how is that relevant to those sitting in front of a screen?Namdrol wrote:You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
- padma norbu
- Posts: 1999
- Joined: Sun May 29, 2011 1:10 am
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
I think the point is that there is a transfer of more than sound and visual data. This brings a question to mind: do we think it would be impossible to receive transmission if you were blind and deaf?Astus wrote:That's why I ask what the difference is between a live webcast and its record. If no transmission is possible through a record what makes the live one special? IIRC there were video cassettes used before online transmission. But even if the teacher simultaneously takes part without being seen or heard by the student, how is that relevant to those sitting in front of a screen?Namdrol wrote:You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.
"Use what seems like poison as medicine. We can use our personal suffering as the path to compassion for all beings." Pema Chodron
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
Because you already had identical, but direct, transmission before ...Pero wrote:
Anyway, having received teachings and empowerments both in person and through webcast I can tell you there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission that I could see.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
... it's just your own delay, not a principe !Pero wrote: There's a delay if you sit in person right next to the teacher too.
Sönam
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
What?Sönam wrote:Because you already had identical, but direct, transmission before ...Pero wrote:
Anyway, having received teachings and empowerments both in person and through webcast I can tell you there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission that I could see.
I was talking about sound.... it's just your own delay, not a principe !
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar
- Shabkar
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
The recording merely served to synchronize the teacher and student in time.Astus wrote:That's why I ask what the difference is between a live webcast and its record. If no transmission is possible through a record what makes the live one special? IIRC there were video cassettes used before online transmission. But even if the teacher simultaneously takes part without being seen or heard by the student, how is that relevant to those sitting in front of a screen?Namdrol wrote:You can have a recorded teaching -- but you cannot receive transmission from a recording.
The live webcast means everyone is participating at the same time. And please, let's not get into silly discussions about network latency and so on.
N
Re: Electronic Dzogchen
simple, that was the discussion ...Pero wrote:What?Sönam wrote:Because you already had identical, but direct, transmission before ...Pero wrote:
Anyway, having received teachings and empowerments both in person and through webcast I can tell you there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission that I could see.
I was talking about sound.... it's just your own delay, not a principe !
Astus said : "How does a live webcast differs from a record, if at all?"
Namdrol answered : "A recording is not alive" and DN added : "In a live webcast you have simultaneously the intention to teach from the lama and the intention to receive the teachings from the students. In a record such is not simultaneous"
so at that point the discussion was not on the sound, but transmission (intention), what is "in" the sound or "behind" the sound
The Astus answered (to DN) : "Intention is quite an internal thing, I don't see how its simultaneity has any relevance. Plus there is always a delay in transmission, even if just a few seconds." ... so at that point it is not supposed to be about sound, but about transmission
then you came with : "There's a delay if you sit in person right next to the teacher too. Anyway, having received teachings and empowerments both in person and through webcast I can tell you there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission that I could see.
so ...
if there is a delay in transmission, also when you sit near the teacher ... it's just your own delay, not a principe !
and
if there is absolutely no difference regarding transmission (not sound) ... it's because you already had identical, but direct, transmission before
is it clearer or should I comment
Sönam
Last edited by Sönam on Mon May 30, 2011 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By understanding everything you perceive from the perspective of the view, you are freed from the constraints of philosophical beliefs.
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -
By understanding that any and all mental activity is meditation, you are freed from arbitrary divisions between formal sessions and postmeditation activity.
- Longchen Rabjam -