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by Astus
Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:52 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The first five patriarchs on meditation
Replies: 4
Views: 157

Re: The first five patriarchs on meditation

The sources and quotes that say Bodhidharma taught meditation. See McRae's The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chʻan Buddhism, p 16-19. He quotes there the Xu Gaoseng Zhuan: 'Feeling compassion [as a result of the decline of the True Teaching in this] obscure corner [of the world (i.e., ...
by Astus
Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:16 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The first five patriarchs on meditation
Replies: 4
Views: 157

Re: The first five patriarchs on meditation

Dgj wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:45 pm
Does anyone know the exact sources and quotes?
For what?
by Astus
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:03 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: True existence and substantial existence
Replies: 12
Views: 167

Re: True existence and substantial existence

Then, a thought, for instance is not a substance. Nothing is a substance. Things seem substantial because of ignorance, substantiality is an incorrect assumption. But it is still a dualistic phenomenon, isn't it? The dualism of self and other is another way to say substantiality. But the sentence i...
by Astus
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:09 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: True existence and substantial existence
Replies: 12
Views: 167

Re: True existence and substantial existence

"Conceptual product" and "conceived object" occur at one time, and both as an illusion, so I didn't quite get your point why then it is a deciding factor. If substantiality is understood to be a conceptual product then it is no longer a substance, an independent entity, but a mere name, while if su...
by Astus
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:43 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Replies: 10
Views: 148

Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases

Dgj wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:14 pm
Do you know of a book where the author explains that most of the accounts are fictitious?
Fathering Your Father: The Zen of Fabrication in Tang Buddhism
Patriarchs on Paper: A Critical History of Medieval Chan Literature
by Astus
Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:23 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: True existence and substantial existence
Replies: 12
Views: 167

Re: True existence and substantial existence

Existence is insubstantial (nihsvabhava), as there is no substance (svabhava) to be found in anything. At the same time, whenever we say that something is/exists, that is conceiving a substance right there. And if we say something does not exist, that is still thinking of a substance. The reason bei...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:07 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Replies: 10
Views: 148

Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases

Do you happen to know of a book where it is flatly stated that most of the accounts are fictional? Or something along those lines? That is a bit simplistic approach. Consider family stories, how they can become quite colourful, expanded, reduced, changed, or even overwritten by time, and by intenti...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:04 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

The sixth patriarch of what, though? If there was no delineated Chan school, then what was he talking about? Shenxiu posited himself as a transmitter of Hongren's teachings, and Shenxiu's disciples claimed that he was the true sixth patriarch counting from Bodhidharma. It was Shenxiu, and especiall...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 6:00 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Replies: 10
Views: 148

Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases

And what have scholars found when they make these comparisons? Do they find the Gong Ans accurate, or highly fabricated? One can only compare one written source with another. There is fairly little from the Tang era to use, and much less of what can be compared with the stories used in Song era col...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:13 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Was chanzong used in the Song, once Chan started to become more known as such? Very much. Also, if there was no specific delineation of a Chan school, what was Shen Hui preaching about when he spoke of Northern and Southern schools? Shenhui made the claim that Huineng was the sixth patriarch and no...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:09 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Replies: 10
Views: 148

Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases

Dgj wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:59 pm
whatever history may be in them is nearly impossible to discern because of the enhancing and alteration. Correct?
It depends on available sources to compare them with.
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:53 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: Shouting, Hitting, etc.
Replies: 12
Views: 307

Re: Shouting, Hitting, etc.

Are there any other teachers who taught Zen with no practices and with instant enlightenment as Shen Hui spoke of? First of all, Shenhui instructed people to abide by the precepts, to read and recite Mahayana sutras, and to recognise the nature of their mind in meditation. Secondly, the teaching of...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:41 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Faru is the first to be known as a "Chan master" where "Chan" denotes a certain subset of Buddhism that denotes a lineage to Bodhidharma. Not exactly. It is Faru's epitaph that is the first known instance where the connection between Bodhidharma and Hongren is claimed to exist. If not, when did "Ch...
by Astus
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:06 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases
Replies: 10
Views: 148

Re: The Historicity of the Gong An Cases

What is the scholarly concensus on the historicity of the gong an cases of the Blue Cliff Record, Gateless Gate, etc.? First of all, consider Yuanwu's words found in the commentary to the first case in the Blue Cliff Record: 'According to tradition, Master Zhi died in the year 514, while Bodhidharm...
by Astus
Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:16 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

I don't believe the Chan tradition is a fraud. What do you understand the Chan tradition to be? Is it an unbroken lineage of mind-to-mind transmission directly from teacher to disciple? Or is it something else? If it is something else, something sublime beyond historical events, then it has little ...
by Astus
Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:53 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

Thanks. So, for example, Hongren in his time wouldn't have been known as a part of something called Chan as a unique meaning for the word signifying, at least, a lineage from Bodhidharma? He would have been called a member of the East Mountain teaching, or just a Buddhist master? He would have like...
by Astus
Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:55 am
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

What about simply what these people were called? Were Linji and Chou Chou known as Chan teachers/practitioners in their time? Or were they probably known as members of some other school until the word "Chan" started to be applied to them after the fact? 'Chan does not define itself as being one amo...
by Astus
Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:02 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

It sounds like this author fleshed out what Mcrae probably hoped to say by implication: Chan was never an institutionally separate school at any time in Chinese Buddhist history before the Song . Chan was never an institutionally separate school, full stop. What developed during the Song was the sy...
by Astus
Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:14 pm
Forum: Chan
Topic: Shouting, Hitting, etc.
Replies: 12
Views: 307

Re: Shouting, Hitting, etc.

what of Shen Hui's Zen? ... Since all schools trace their roots to Shen Hui, shouldn't all, or at least a few teach this Zen? The only notable person who claimed to be a descendant of the Heze School was Guifeng Zongmi, and he actually included seated meditation as an important practice, furthermor...
by Astus
Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:20 am
Forum: Chan
Topic: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."
Replies: 25
Views: 435

Re: "Never an Institutionally Separate Chan School..."

What does this mean? That people in, for example, the Tang dynasty, wouldn't even know what the Chan school was? Wouldn't know a single person denoted as a Chan Master? Are all Chan labels and persons only known as such in retrospection? 'the entire lineage prior to the Song is best understood as a...

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