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by Astus
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:07 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:36 pm
Yes, this is what we mean when we say that one can have a direct perception of another's mind.
In that case, knowing other's mind is not a counter-example to all experiences being within the scope of individual karma.
by Astus
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:51 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

But now you are avoiding my question again: Of course I can. The fact that there can be mutually understood communication is a testament to that. The fact that teaching and learning can occur is a testament to that. The fact that socialisation occurs is a testament to that. Are you denying these oc...
by Astus
Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:47 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Astus, surely you know what a pratyakṣa is and what it entails. "The cognition in which there is no conceptual construction is perception." (Dignaga: Pratyaksapariccheda, in Dignaga on Perception, p 25, tr Hattori) However: "By the power of meditation the yogin can have such clear representations t...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:59 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

an image is a representation. All perceptions of characteristics are representational. Then why do you call that a direct perception? For example, there is a story of a monk of whom devas were fond. They cast theirs mind forth one day, looking for this monk, and unable to locate him, they went to t...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 10:43 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Even if I have no grasp of mathematics, I know that two individual phenomenon make a pair. How do you know? Is that an information inherent in the perceived object, or is it rather an understanding arrived at by inference? So you believe a Buddha's mind is conditioned and thus cannot see things for...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:46 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

can perceive the intrinsic characteristics of the conceptual image existing in the other person's mind. It does not mean they share the same "thought." That is a perception of a reflection, a copy, a simulacrum of those characteristics, in other words, a representation. Why? Simply because it is th...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 8:33 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

For example: 1+1=2 REGARDLESS of your mental conditioning. Mathematical truths mean nothing to those who know nothing about mathematics, i.e. they do not exist for them. If you propose that mathematics is real, independent of minds, that might be so, but they still do not exist for those without re...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:03 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:49 pm
The above is mistaken, and is posited on a realist perspective.
What do you mean by direct perception of others' minds then?
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:01 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

you cannot even show me what you see, what you think. Of course I can. Showing it would mean that I experience exactly the way you experience, that my visual consciousness is identical to yours, etc. The fact that there can be mutually understood communication is a testament to that. The fact that ...
by Astus
Sat Apr 21, 2018 12:46 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

minds can appear directly to each other without the need for some intermediary. This is what the ability to know the minds of others shows us. Thus is not an ability restricted to awakened folks. How does it work? A mind which grasps signs is something which can appear to the mind of others. It is ...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:54 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

You're skipping several steps. Going with the abhidharma model makes no difference, as the external factors are not experienced, only the resultant consciousness is what is registered at all. There the moments of sensory consciousnesses are meaningless, it is only with the processing of impressions...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:04 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:57 pm
What you are arguing is a philosophical point that presumes our subjective consciousness is some unique mystery.
The argument is regarding the subjective experience. Brain scans and biological analysis have nothing to do with it.
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:00 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

You equate the perception of an appearance with "having thoughts put into one's mind" Perception exists in consciousness. If one can make another's consciousness perceive something, that is no different from being able to put a thought into another's mind, as it means one can control another's mind...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:37 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Queequeg wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:33 pm
No, it doesn't.
Why not? The mind stream consists of one momentary thought followed by another momentary thought. If there is a moment that is identical for two streams, it becomes the single cause of the following moment of thought, thus there is only one stream of thought left.
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:30 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

The material aggregate is defined as all physical sense organs and AND objects made of the four elements. There are both sense-faculties and sense-objects for all 6 sense-fields, and from their meeting arises the respective sense-consciousnesses. Or this can be looked at from the experiential persp...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:24 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

of course there are shared sense fields, even if we experience them individually. As Malcolm said, what I meant was that things are experienced individually. What you see as light is not what I see as light. What you think as light is not what I think as light. Furthermore, you cannot even show me ...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:16 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:49 pm
the traces of other minds are sufficiently strong to generate appearances for ours.
Such a possibility would mean that one could put thoughts into another's mind, and if that could happen, then one stream of consciousness could cross another stream and become one.
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:45 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

So we are not interacting? We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also i...
by Astus
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:30 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

We know that all appearances have the nature of illusion, but this does not mean that there are no appearances. Being illusion means it is conditioned by ignorance, it is distorted by mental habits, by karma. In other words, all beings experience what they project as the inner and outer world. That...
by Astus
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:14 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Collective karma
Replies: 122
Views: 1770

Re: Collective karma

Yes, ultimately. But at the relative level? That's what we are talking about when it comes to Nirmanakaya. It does explain the relative level being a product of the mind. In the case of ordinary beings, experiences are what a deluded mind imagines out of ignorance. The nirmanakaya that is seen by b...