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by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:09 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:58 pm
Accepted by who, or more to the point: by which authority/orthodoxy?
By both parties questioning the authenticity of a teaching.
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:07 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 6:55 pm
Anybody can make up "an utterance" and credit it to the/a Buddha.
So how can you tell if it's valid or not? Whether it is in harmony with the accepted teachings, as noted above, but also see: Gotami Sutta, Satthusasana Sutta.

PS. https://fakebuddhaquotes.com/
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:55 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

And who gets to decide what is authentic Dharma? Historians? "Without approval and without scorn, but carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Disci...
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:47 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

The authenticity of a teaching is decided on the basis of its content, not its supposed provenance, determined by some historiographical criteria, which is at best arbitrary and a product of the perceptions of common people. How do you tell if the content is the Buddha's teaching or not? You compar...
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 4:10 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

How is this exercise in conjecture about the date of these texts useful to a mahayani or a Vajrayani? This is only of interest to non-practitioners. Aren't practitioners invested in the matter of studying authentic Dharma? The authenticity of a teaching is commonly decided based on its provenance, ...
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:16 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

It really doesn’t prove anything. When sravakas are depicted as people holding views that are found in texts clearly later than the agamas, then on what basis is it reasonable to assume that such a work is earlier than those that contain the views mentioned? Would you take, for instance, that such ...
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:25 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

how do you choose the features that identify an "early" text. Material arranged in such a way as to be easy to recite and memorise does not make it an early text, it only makes it material arranged to be easy to recite and memorise. That is not the only criteria, however, it is accepted by all that...
by Astus
Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:23 am
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

This assumes that (all) the nikayas/agamas are the earliest Dharma texts. Is there any historical evidence for this? There is a summary regarding the Early Buddhist Texts on Wikipedia . For a more extensive summary with references you can read The Authenticity of the Early Buddhist Texts by Bhikkhu...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:22 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

What I mean is that a person can know Buddha mind well that they don’t need to utilize books in order to guide people to it. That is not what relying on the scriptures means. It means that the source of one's knowledge originates from them. If Dharma transmission in Zen does not mean that the mind ...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:59 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 5:47 pm
Because they understand it well enough without having to continue reading books about it
Do you mean that everything there is to know to attain buddhahood is found in buddha-mind, and a Zen teacher knows buddha-mind "well enough" to no longer need to study the Buddha's teachings?
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:57 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

I don't agree. If one understands what "Buddha mind" is well enough, one would not need to rely on scriptures, as not needing to rely on scriptures is what "well enough" would mean to begin with. The sutras cover the whole path up to buddhahood. A bodhisattva is someone who is dedicated to master a...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 3:49 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

In Zen it's whether one truly received the transmission. But what is the nature of transmission? Usually it is understood as a certification of the attainment of a disciple. It does not mean the whole process of receiving teachings. It sounds to me that you are putting in doubt the entire teacher-t...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:47 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

And sudden awakening to buddha-mind is something different from actually becoming a 100% perfect Buddha. There is such an interpretation by those who talk of "sudden awakening, gradual practice". None of the quotes you quoted above actually say that a very learned person cannot relay the Buddha's t...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:03 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

If one completes a doctorate, then the supervisor is a significant factor. In maths when one talks about young researchers, one hears a lot of things like 'he was a student of....". So there is a lineage There are a number of crucial differences between saying that one has studied under this and th...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:29 pm
Forum: Mahāyāna Buddhism
Topic: Age of Mahayana Schools
Replies: 48
Views: 798

Re: Age of Mahayana Schools

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:16 pm
Mahayana arose at the same time as Hinayana.
That is a bit ambiguous. For instance, the term hinayana is used by mahayana in order to distinguish itself, and since these terms depend on each other, like low and high, they cannot exist separately.
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:18 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Texts also bemoan the scarcity of realised teachers, at times. And lineage is surely an indication at least, if not a guarantee. Do you have a better system in mind? The lineage system is not a commonly used way in education, not even in Buddhism. Just consider how both mundane (engineers, scientis...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:33 am
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

I think there are texts and there is reality on the ground. Texts are not apart from the reality on the ground, but one aspect of it. Such texts, teachings, views, etc. influence and define what and how people think of Zen and Zen teachers, and that in turn conditions expectations and behaviours. F...
by Astus
Tue Jul 07, 2020 9:18 am
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

Yes there is such a claim. If the original claim is "that members of the lineage are on the same level of awakening as the Buddha himself" that is no different than saying "9th bhumi still just isn't good enough" since 9th bhumi, is by definition, not the same as Buddha himself. If the transmission...
by Astus
Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:40 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

to claim that a person who has reached the 8th or 9th Bhumi, or the equivalent or whatever other scale that is used, to claim that that person would not be worthy of being called a zen master, or to claim that this would still somehow still be unsatisfactory, I just don't see how that is reasonable...
by Astus
Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:01 pm
Forum: Zen
Topic: Are Zen teachers awakened?
Replies: 225
Views: 5373

Re: Are Zen teachers awakened?

A satisfactory level awakening. What is that level? I don't see anything in any of the above that dictates that only 100% full, complete, perfection is the only thing that is satisfactory. Then let me highlight some passages and words from the above quotes. 'the Buddha recognized that one of his fo...

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