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by Spelare
Fri May 25, 2018 3:02 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

At least there's some life in this thread, even if it keeps flowing into weird tangents. The rest of the Dzogchen forum had gone eerily quiet until a few hackles were raised. If nothing else, it's been spontaneous and at times absurd. Hopefully enjoyable. I'd say "educational," but that tends to put...
by Spelare
Fri May 25, 2018 1:15 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Why Eastern Tibet?
Replies: 7
Views: 1076

Re: Why Eastern Tibet?

Kathog, Dzogchen, Shechen, and Palyul are all in Eastern Tibet. The two Nyingma monasteries in Central Tibet are Mindrol Ling and Dorje Drak. The Geluk Hegemony in Central Tibet stifled the other three schools very heavily. In Kham there was more distance, and thus, more life for Sakya, Kagyu and N...
by Spelare
Fri May 25, 2018 1:12 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

This is probably the reason such threads are completely meaningless. What is the point of this discussion if everyone assigns whatever meaning they want to the words? (e.g. the word 'god'). It's not as extreme as assigning whatever meaning we want. It's a matter of acquaintance with a broad yet fin...
by Spelare
Fri May 25, 2018 12:46 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Why Eastern Tibet?
Replies: 7
Views: 1076

Why Eastern Tibet?

Why are nearly all the contemporary Dzogchen masters known in the Western world, not to mention a large proportion of Nyingma and Kagyu lamas in general, from Eastern Tibet? Especially from the region of Kham, it seems. There are exceptions, but name a lama in one of these traditions and odds are th...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 9:50 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection
Replies: 50
Views: 14096

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection

They were mostly influenced by Neoplatonists. They were carrying on Christian forms that Constantine tried to eradicate at the Council of Nicea in 325 BCE. Kevin... Indeed, there was a strong Neoplatonic influence via Origen. However, he was considered basically orthodox until Justinian convened th...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 9:28 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection
Replies: 50
Views: 14096

Re: Father Francis Tiso Dzogchen & Early Christianity Connection

I got about halfway through Tiso's book, before setting it down a couple of months ago. Not because it was uninteresting, but because I had other things to study. I wish it had an index, I'll say that! One point to note is that Tiso's focus is not as broad as the Eastern Orthodox Church or its hesyc...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 2:09 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

He's in good company when we look at what Buddhist tantrikas did from early on. No. Buddhist Vajrayāna, and even Mahāyāna, use of nonbuddhist figures was done in the context of conquest, domination and apppropiration, not fitting them pleasantly into a Buddhist scheme. The same applies to Tibetan c...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 3:19 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

So, in a way, this answers the question of what ChNN was doing talking about God and Jesus. He's in good company when we look at what Buddhist tantrikas did from early on. In that sense, what he said is not innovative, but in keeping with tradition. It just looks innovative to us because we're used ...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 2:46 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

In any case, is it your opinion that the aforementioned rhetoric in the Dzogchen tantras was originally intended to be theistic? Your line of inquiry seems to continually insinuate that this is your view. I'm not saying that the authors of the Dzogchen tantras intended them to be theistic. It would...
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 2:41 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

EDIT: Couldn't get it to format properly. Mods can delete this one.
by Spelare
Thu May 24, 2018 1:18 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

So, how would these great scholars of pramāṇa regard the metaphorical use of phrases like "all-creating king" in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious if anyone knows how such language was formally justified in a historical Buddhist context, either Indian or Tibetan. Vasubandhu and Dharmakīrti were Yogācār...
by Spelare
Wed May 23, 2018 11:58 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

So, how would these great scholars of pramāṇa regard the metaphorical use of phrases like "all-creating king" in Dzogchen tantras? I'm curious if anyone knows how such language was formally justified in a historical Buddhist context, either Indian or Tibetan. Was there a time when it would have been...
by Spelare
Wed May 23, 2018 11:16 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

Or as the great Dharmakirti put it, on the belief in God: " [It's] the mark of the crass stupidity of witless men. " I believe Dharmakīrti made such remarks in the context of critiquing Śaiva tantra. Had he known of Buddhist tantric practice, he would likely have viewed it as a corruption of Buddhi...
by Spelare
Wed May 23, 2018 4:43 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

The why is: unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness. So, you're saying that an independent scholar studying Buddhist philosophy, as in my hypothetical case, could not realize emptiness when he had access to the canonical teachings? Are yo...
by Spelare
Wed May 23, 2018 4:22 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

unless one understands dependent origination as the Buddha taught it, one will not realize emptiness. But isn't Dependant Origination just a logical conclusion ? I'd say it's scientific logic...maybe physics ? Maybe it takes a genius to figure out ? Do you mean that one can realize emptiness experi...
by Spelare
Wed May 23, 2018 4:10 am
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

And suppose a formally Christian, Jewish, or whatever person does study Buddhist philosophy and then has a spontaneous realization of emptiness in their direct experience. not possible. now ask why. Actually, though. There are many people whose adherence to Christian doctrine, for example, is reall...
by Spelare
Tue May 22, 2018 11:58 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

My gut tells me [...] That's just gas. Look, you are here arguing from a.) emotion, and b.) uneducated personal opinion (i.e., ignorance), and you're placing more value on emotion and your own uneducated personal opinion, over that of the Buddhadharma. You are objecting on the basis of attachment t...
by Spelare
Tue May 22, 2018 10:58 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

And suppose a formally Christian, Jewish, or whatever person does study Buddhist philosophy and then has a spontaneous realization of emptiness in their direct experience. Why should they then go to the trouble of formal refuge? Why need they affiliate or disaffiliate from any institution? They hav...
by Spelare
Tue May 22, 2018 10:46 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

So, from what I understand, wrong view is a barrier to realization, and this is why non-Buddhists are said to be out of luck. However, is it not characteristic of human experience that view, like all thoughts/concepts/mental stances, is intermittent? We may have a deeper felt sense of that wrong vi...
by Spelare
Tue May 22, 2018 10:02 pm
Forum: Dzogchen
Topic: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?
Replies: 443
Views: 34834

Re: Quote by ChNNR about Dzogchen and God - where is it from?

So, from what I understand, wrong view is a barrier to realization, and this is why non-Buddhists are said to be out of luck. However, is it not characteristic of human experience that view, like all thoughts/concepts/mental stances, is intermittent? We may have a deeper felt sense of that wrong vie...

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