Dharma Wheel

If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature. I understand that Madhyamaka means "middle." In general, it is the mi...

Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:03 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:45 pm Which leads me to wonder...what is beyond mere Madhyamaka?

Nothing, nothing surpasses Madhyamaka.

I think so too -- any alternatives would be merely more conceptuality.

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.

I understand that Madhyamaka means "middle" already.

Which leads me to wonder...what is beyond mere Madhyamaka?

To my limited understanding, Madhyamaka does indeed disabuse one of bias.

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:06 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm

So, you tell me, what is it then?

"Salve" sounds like whatever isn't supporting your position.

That's not answering my question.

Salve is whatever is needed to disabuse you of bias.

What do you think Madhyamaka was salving?

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:00 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm

Madhyamika is nothing but salve.

Come on...

So, you tell me, what is it then?

"Salve" sounds like whatever isn't supporting your position.

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:58 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:53 pm

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:52 pm

Nagarjuna is responding to a particular audience and offering a salve for their unique misapprehension.

Come on...

Madhyamika is nothing but salve.

Come on...

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:52 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pmI don't think it is.

Would it be fair to say that you think Nagarjuna is full of it?

Nagarjuna is responding to a particular audience and offering a salve for their unique misapprehension.

Come on...

Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:51 pm Unfortunately, Queequeg generally retreats into Tien tai private language about this issue.

I noticed.

Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to. Yes, he is. This thread should really be split into a thread called Ekayāna: controversies and continuities. Not positing a fourth. The three are upaya - the Buddh...

The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana. Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to. Buddhayana is referred to as Sudden and Complete/Perfect/Round. I fe...

jake wrote:Sorry to say, I remain rather ignorant of the specifics of the Tibetan traditions.

As a side note, I don't know what is Tibetan in this discussion...did you mean to say Indian?

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm

marting wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm If Ziporyn is correct, is this a different understanding from Queequeg's presentation? It appears to be.

No. Same.

What is a Buddhayana?

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pmI don't think it is.

Would it be fair to say that you think Nagarjuna is full of it?

The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.

Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.

Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 pm The awakening of the pratyekabuddha does not equal the awakening of a Buddha. It is of an inferior nature.

What I am asking is: how is the awakening of the pratyekabuddha even possible without a Buddha?

Ekayana in the Lotus means that even when the Buddha teaches the the three vehicles he is actually teaching the one Buddhayana. Those on the sravakayana are taught arhatship and are aiming for arhatship; pratyekabuddhayana are aiming for pratyekabuddhahood; bodhisattvayana are taught a particular i...

I think I follow: that the three would not be treading the path of Buddhayana without the Buddha? Just wanted to double check. With the ekayana perspective can the three paths arise without the Buddha? (Maybe the hang-up is that I'm just trying to understand the subject better. I'm not arguing.) Ri...

I think I follow: that the three would not be treading the path of Buddhayana without the Buddha? Just wanted to double check.

With the ekayana perspective can the three paths arise without the Buddha?

(Maybe the hang-up is that I'm just trying to understand the subject better. I'm not arguing.)