Sudden Realization

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SuddenRealization
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Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:24 pm

Hi All,

Last night I have realized I firmly believe in some form of buddhism. I'm not sure if my perspective fits into any of the traditional streams of buddhism but I would love to share my ideas with you.
For years I have been thinking about how it is possible that I can experience my life from my perspective, but not someone elses from their perspective. This is obviously something that is currently completely unexplainable by science and some might call this the soul. I am mostly a grounded and very scientifically oriented person but this concept has continued to baffle me for years on end.

Over years of studying different forms of philosophy, psychology, computer science, and physics(mind you, most of it is not on a professional level except for computer science), and doing some psychedelic drugs, I have come to my personal conclusion that the only real way this "soul" can scientifically coexist with the already established laws of nature can be explained by quantum physics. To explain with my limited knowledge of quantum physics why I think this is the case, is that every single thing in existance does not truly exist, but is simply a set of possible states something can exist in until it is observed.
But how does the universe define what an observer is? How is it possible that the very laws of physics act differently when observed than when they are not observed. I personally think the missing element here is that this "soul", that all of us share, this single conciousness is by definition linked with the behavior of the universe. I quote: "If a tree falls down in the forest but no soul is there to hear it fall, does it really make a sound?".

So I think, we are all one conciousness, living and dying and living again and again until we have experienced all possible perspectives life has to offer to our conciousness, and that the universe essentially only "renders(makes things really exist)" when they are observed to somehow preserve processing power, just like you have view distance in games. For example if you are mining in a cave thousands of blocks away from your house in minecraft, your house isnt actually existing until you get close enough to observer it again.

I just wonder, what happens after we have all reincarnated through all life that has ever existed and ever will exist.

Because of this realisation starting today I will make it my personal mission to make any interaction with any other concious being as positive for both sides as I humanely can achieve.

I don't know if I'm making sense here but I would love to hear your opinions about this.

Malcolm
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:29 pm

SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:24 pm


So I think, we are all one conciousness,
You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.

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SuddenRealization
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:42 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:29 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:24 pm


So I think, we are all one conciousness,
You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?

Malcolm
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm

SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:29 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 6:24 pm


So I think, we are all one conciousness,
You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.

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SuddenRealization
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:29 pm


You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.
Thank you, it appears I have misunderstood some core concepts of buddhism in the end. It appears I still have some exploring to do to find out where I belong.
This is all very weird and new to me right now and a bit hard to navigate since last night was the first time I realized a tangible connection between my scientific beliefs and my philosophical experiences.
I want to thoroughly thank you for respectfully telling me that my views are incompatible and I wish you the very best!

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:32 am

Welcome to DW!



If you decide to stay, that is. We have a pan-Dharma religions forum, but there's not much activity there right now:
https://dharmapaths.com/

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Punya » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:10 am

Welcome to DW! :hi:

Even though you might be told here that your conceptions of what Buddhism is about aren't correct, don't let that stop you from exploring. If you have questions just ask. You might find Buddhism has something to offer you, even though it's not quite what you first thought.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:09 am

Welcome.

You can easily search the site for anything that interests you. Please feel free to comment on anything of interest.
I usually use a site-specific search in my browser, i.e. searching for
site:https://dharmawheel.net search-term
where search-term is what you're looking for.
Since the forum has been going for so long, there will be huge numbers of results for most common terms.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:57 am

Suddenrealization wrote:That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the Buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?
Greetings, welcome. Well, to begin with, quantum physics was not discovered until the 20th Century, so retrofitting something that comes out of that discovery onto the ancient tradition of Buddhism is kind of an awkward fit. BUT - you're not alone in having such ideas.

If you've never read it, the grandaddy of this genre was the 1970-something book, The Tao of Physics, by Frithjof Capra. At the time, Capra, a Czech post-grad physics student was attempting to write a book on ideas in quantum physics, but that book ended up becoming a best-seller and also a counter-culture classic, and has been in print ever since.

So, what the drift of your post refers to, is the 'Copenhagen Interpretation' of quantum physics. This is a rather vague 'meta-philosophy' articulated by several of the pioneers of quantum, namely, Niels Bohr, who invented the modern model of the atom, and his student Werner Heisenberg, who devised the original mathematics (called 'matrix mechanics') and also discovered the uncertainty principle. It is this milieu which gave rise to the 'observer problem' which you're referring to.

In respect of the 'copenhagen interpretation' it has been said that:
Freud remarked that ‘the self-love of mankind has been three times wounded by science’ - referring to the Copernican revolution, Darwin’s discovery of evolution, and Nietszche’s declaration of the Death of God. In a strange way, the Copenhagen Interpretation gave back to humanity what the Enlightenment had taken away, by placing consciousness in a pivotal role in the observation of the most fundamental constituents of reality.
This actually is the beginning of a wholly new and radical philosophical attitude, in my view, which is very much the attitude of the Tao of Physics.

You know, Neils Bohr incorporated the ying-yang in his familial Coat of Arms, due to his discovery of the 'complementarity principle' which he regarded as fundamental to his discoveries:

Image

So, since Frithjof Capra's book talked about the convergence between Eastern philosophy and quantum physics, there have been more books written along these lines. One author is Arthur Zajonc, who was a Professor of Physics, and also one of the convenors of the Mind Life Institute which is chaired by the Dalai Lama. There's a brief bio here which mentions some of his books. There's also The Quantum and the Lotus by Buddhist scientist-monastic Matthieu Ricard. There are other books out there too, although one has sometimes to exercise judgement to sort the wheat from the chaff.

Now, all of this is tangential to Buddhism proper, which doesn't need any of this in order to realise its aims, but for someone in modern culture who is interested in Buddhism, it provides some interesting topics for reading.

:namaste:
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Dan74 » Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:25 pm

Hi Suddenrealization :hi:

As far as I can tell, Buddhism isn't really a set of beliefs to try on for size but a system of instructions, a practice. Whatever beliefs it promotes are in service of that practice, and as such are provisional. Basically Buddhism is to help folks let go of ignorance and delusion and help others do the same.

As far as your musings go, I've entertained similar ones and I'm sure many Buddhists (and Hindus) do too.

In the Zen tradition, if you have a nagging question you cannot resolve, this can be turned into a powerful practice. Not sure if you've heard of koans. They are basically such nagging questions that have no rational solutions. If one focuses one's whole being on them, the solution is born of your body, heart, and soul, when dualities dissolve. But to make this happen generally requires the right teacher.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Shiva » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm

Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:42 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:29 pm


You would be better off in a Hindu forum. No school of Buddhism accepts this.
That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.
Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.

Anyhow, @SuddenRealization; I personally think you might feel more linked to Kashmir Shaivism because your particular choice of words but won't be a bad idea to look also into Dzogchen. :namaste:

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:39 pm

Punya wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:10 am
Welcome to DW! :hi:

Even though you might be told here that your conceptions of what Buddhism is about aren't correct, don't let that stop you from exploring. If you have questions just ask. You might find Buddhism has something to offer you, even though it's not quite what you first thought.
I am definitely planning to continue exploring wherever that may lead me. And I thank you for your support!

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:45 pm

Dan74 wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:25 pm
Hi Suddenrealization :hi:

As far as I can tell, Buddhism isn't really a set of beliefs to try on for size but a system of instructions, a practice. Whatever beliefs it promotes are in service of that practice, and as such are provisional. Basically Buddhism is to help folks let go of ignorance and delusion and help others do the same.

As far as your musings go, I've entertained similar ones and I'm sure many Buddhists (and Hindus) do too.

In the Zen tradition, if you have a nagging question you cannot resolve, this can be turned into a powerful practice. Not sure if you've heard of koans. They are basically such nagging questions that have no rational solutions. If one focuses one's whole being on them, the solution is born of your body, heart, and soul, when dualities dissolve. But to make this happen generally requires the right teacher.
I am completely into the spirit of abolishing ignorance and delusion, and while I think I can kind of identify delusion I try not to because I want to allow people to entertain the beliefs they want to believe. Even if I think they are delusional I realise I might me the one that is delusional and they might be right. Ignorance is different though. I try to teach people to accept the basic facts of reality, and how they interpret those facts is fully up to them.

Thank you for all your responses, you are all lovely!!!

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm

Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:42 pm


That's good to know, I'm still kind of unsure how to navigate how all of these perspectives came together into this realization. Because of this I would respectfully like to ask how this differs from the buddhist interpretation of reincarnation?
In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.
Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Shiva » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:57 pm

Dear Malcom,
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm
Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm


In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.
Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
Dzogchen realization is non-dual awareness; there is no difference. Anyhow, If you disagree with what I am saying that is fine for me as I do not tend to enter on arguments or debates on Dzogchen. Anyhow my suggestion to @SuddenRealization stands, he find it useful or not. :namaste:

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm
Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:03 pm


In Buddhadharma, every consciousness is individual, unique, and differentiated. Otherwise, karma, rebirth, and liberation cannot function. In other words, if we are all one consciousness, then we all have the same karma, we all have the same rebirth, and we all have the same liberation all at the same time.
Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:32 pm

Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:57 pm
Dear Malcom,
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm
Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:



Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
Dzogchen realization is non-dual awareness; there is no difference. Anyhow, If you disagree with what I am saying that is fine for me as I do not tend to enter on arguments or debates on Dzogchen. Anyhow my suggestion to @SuddenRealization stands, he find it useful or not. :namaste:
You explained my point way better than I did!

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 pm

SuddenRealization wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm
Shiva wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:12 pm
Dear Malcom,

Greetings. You wrote:



Your affirmation sounds actually more like the Atman affirmation in Hinduism rather than to the Anatman approach of Buddhism. I understand that the question that @SuddenRealization brings is actually more similar to the idea of Shiva in Kashmir Shaivism but that same approach is non-different from a Dzogchen Realization if not because the symbolic language particular to that Indian tradition which embraces Shiva as a symbol of Dzogchen Trikaya.
The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
In Buddhism, ignorance is the spiritual issue though, the root of delusion and suffering. Not necessarily ignorance of this or that piece of doctrine - but it can be, especially if we have solidified notions that don't correspond to reality.

Anyway, it might be worth taking some time to study "basic" Buddhism further ideas of an oversoul we all share, individual unique static souls etc. are rejected by any Buddhist schools that I'm aware of.

Because our views have a direct impact on our meditation etc., these things can be quite relevant (which is why people bring them up on here), but everyone's relationship to them is a bit different.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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SuddenRealization
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:44 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm


The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
In Buddhism, ignorance is the spiritual issue though, the root of delusion and suffering. Not necessarily ignorance of this or that piece of doctrine - but it can be.
I fully agree, I see doctrine as a form of propaganda but the opposite of having he chane to discover what is your own truth is really important.

I made an appointment with a buddhist master near me to discuss my beliefs. I hope he will be able to point me in the right direction

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by SuddenRealization » Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:47 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 pm
SuddenRealization wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:53 pm


The notion that Dzogchen and Trika are commensurate is a complete error. Dzogchen does not propose an absolute nonduality of any kind. If you think so, you are deeply mistaken and you need to study more, or better yet, study with a qualified teacher who can remove the cataract of your ignorance.

And in general, since every mind stream arises based on its own unique set of causes and conditions, mind streams in Buddhadharma are considered individual, unique, and differentiated. There are reams of Mahāyāna arguments which prove this. These individual, unique, and differentiated do not possess any svabhāva, they are free from extremes, and therefore, the fault of attributing identity to them does not exist.
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
In Buddhism, ignorance is the spiritual issue though, the root of delusion and suffering. Not necessarily ignorance of this or that piece of doctrine - but it can be, especially if we have solidified notions that don't correspond to reality.

Anyway, it might be worth taking some time to study "basic" Buddhism further ideas of an oversoul we all share, individual unique static souls etc. are rejected by any Buddhist schools that I'm aware of.
And while an universal oversoul might be rejected by most if not all buddhists I want to see what your perspective has to offer so I might incorporate some of it into my own.

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