Sudden Realization

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cjdevries
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by cjdevries » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 am

If you are a compassionate person, you will make affinities with the Buddhadharma, no? The Bodhisattvas will guide you whether you are aware of it or not.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Norwegian » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:25 am

cjdevries wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 am
If you are a compassionate person, you will make affinities with the Buddhadharma, no? The Bodhisattvas will guide you whether you are aware of it or not.
This is a complete fantasy.
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The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:26 am

cjdevries wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:16 am
If you are a compassionate person, you will make affinities with the Buddhadharma, no? The Bodhisattvas will guide you whether you are aware of it or not.
Compassion is just one half of the Dharma though. lots of non-Buddhist teachings cultivate compassion, great compassion is connected with the wisdom side, and with the larger sense of "view". It is hard to for instance, cultivate Bodhicitta without this larger view. One can certainly have compassion no matter what one's religious/spiritual orientation (or like I said, with none), but cultivation of Bodhicitta also requires wisdom, and some sort of discriminating understanding.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:27 am

Compassion is essential, but is not enough on its own. We are like birds that need two wings. One wing is compassion, the other is wisdom. A teacher is essential to do this the Vajrayana way.
But you know this. Back in 2015 you said that you were receiving Nyingmapa teachings. What happened?
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:29 am

SuddenRealization wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:58 pm
I realize I'm being very vague right now for what im looking for, but that is just because i dont know what im really looking for.
Then just explore, nothing wrong with taking Buddhist teachings at face value and seeing what you think of them, even better putting them into practice and gauging what happens. I would say though don't try to incorporate them into the "spiritual soup" mentioned earlier, they are not intended to be used like that, though they -are- flexible in some ways.
I am just following my heart to determine what does and does not work for me.
That's one way. I've found that it's good to be critical of our own "heart" from time to time as well. Also to figure what it means for something to "work for you".
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by cjdevries » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:40 am

I'm just learning like everyone else. I have a lot to learn, I'm not trying to say I don't. And I certainly have a long way to go in understanding Buddhadharma and practicing it. I'm not trying to throw out Buddhism and I understand that this is a Buddhist discussion forum. I was just trying to be supportive. If I said something that upset you, there was no intention to offend. Thich Nhat Hanh is one Buddhist teacher who borrows from other traditions.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:42 am

cjdevries wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:40 am
I'm just learning like everyone else. I have a lot to learn, I'm not trying to say I don't. And I certainly have a long way to go in understanding Buddhadharma and practicing it. I'm not trying to throw out Buddhism and I understand that this is a Buddhist discussion forum. I was just trying to be supportive. If I said something that upset you, there was no intention to offend. Thich Nhat Hanh is one Buddhist teacher who borrows from other traditions. My first teacher took me to his bookshelf and there were many spiritual books from multiple traditions, religions.
Speaking for myself, I haven't been offended by anything here, just trying to inject a little critical thought into the whole "all is one" direction that these conversations often go in. The couple of things I've read by TNH were pretty straight up East Asian Mahayana Buddhism (Heart of The Buddha's teachings and something or other else), but I don't doubt he borrows parables etc. from other traditions.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:43 am

We can honour all paths. We can learn from all paths. But it takes all we have to actually practice one fully.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:46 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:43 am
We can honour all paths. We can learn from all paths. But it takes all we have to actually practice one fully.
Exactly. This is even the same for mundane pursuits. If I want to master a martial art or sport, I go do that marital art or sport, and at least gain some sense of competency before broadening my perspective. to do otherwise would result in confusion, and making no progress in either sport. I wouldn't play Basketball for a week and then expect I could go pick up Baseball and get something relatable to my hoops game. We have such limited time.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by smcj » Wed Jan 22, 2020 4:21 am

My own analogy is a spacewalk.

Nobody own “space”. If you’re on a spacewalk you’re outside of any trace of any Earthly limitation. But in order to get into orbit you’ve got to utilize Space X, or the Russians, or the Chinese, or somebody. You can’t turn your nose up to everybody just because they don’t have a monopoly on space.
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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Vasana » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:31 am

On the one hand I get why more experienced practitioners set out to unpick newly interested seekers' views and on the other I imagine how differently these kinds of dialogues would pan out face to face, in a 'lower gear', so to speak. But I get that's just my approach and won't be universally correct either; I.e, just giving simple encouragements, book, video and teacher recommendations and focusing on positive reinforcement rather than the more deconstructive integration styles. Making the dharma sound as pallatable and medicinal as possible rather than focussing on the obscurations of any new seeker.( that can come later, once they're suffused enough by the Dharma they already appreciate). A vast library to be explored that will unravel our assumptions gradually and over time.

Early impressions and interactions count a lot for some people and I just wonder to what degree and consequence ( if any) we move a bit too fast and heavy when speaking to new members.

(Bit of a meta-duscussion in this post but hopefully it contributes something)
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:48 am

There some truth to that, and a good reminder Vasana. It's easy for us to get caught up in the culture here if we been here a while. Everyone is different, when I started on DW about half the time the "old schoolers" would really piss me off, about the other half it turned out that whatever rabbit hole they sent me down was just what I needed. It doesn't look much different in retrospect, there are some big advantages to our "debate centric" culture here, and some big downsides as well.

For my part, I can only say I'm trying to throw out some semi-productive critical thinking for the journey, the kind of stuff that people shared with me. not trying to jump down the OP's throat or anything.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Dan74 » Wed Jan 22, 2020 9:13 am

Vasana wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:31 am
On the one hand I get why more experienced practitioners set out to unpick newly interested seekers' views and on the other I imagine how differently these kinds of dialogues would pan out face to face, in a 'lower gear', so to speak. But I get that's just my approach and won't be universally correct either; I.e, just giving simple encouragements, book, video and teacher recommendations and focusing on positive reinforcement rather than the more deconstructive integration styles. Making the dharma sound as pallatable and medicinal as possible rather than focussing on the obscurations of any new seeker.( that can come later, once they're suffused enough by the Dharma they already appreciate). A vast library to be explored that will unravel our assumptions gradually and over time.

Early impressions and interactions count a lot for some people and I just wonder to what degree and consequence ( if any) we move a bit too fast and heavy when speaking to new members.

(Bit of a meta-duscussion in this post but hopefully it contributes something)
FWIW, I feel the same way.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:39 am

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:54 pm
To be blunt, both one's own dreams, and one's decisions about "not needing teachers" or having one's own path are more than likely just one's own delusions.

It's good to be careful when studying and sizing up traditions, teachers, paths, etc. but starting out with the assumption that one MUST have one's own unique way is a hindrance. OF COURSE everyone's path is unique, but everyone's path is also the product of one's unique karma, current circumstances, what-have-you. Studying with a teacher, or following a tradition, does not mean one is not on one's own unique path, after all.
This.
Vasana makes a point that needs consideration, alongside the demonstrable fact that there are people on the forum who have been circling the runway for years., which also needs considering.
Perhaps tone is more important than humouring. I for one don’t always get the tone right.
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Vasana » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:08 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:48 am
There some truth to that, and a good reminder Vasana. It's easy for us to get caught up in the culture here if we been here a while. Everyone is different, when I started on DW about half the time the "old schoolers" would really piss me off, about the other half it turned out that whatever rabbit hole they sent me down was just what I needed.
Yeah I had a similar experience. I think this kind of mimics lots of traditional story arcs of encountering useful guides and freinds who might not flatter or humour us so easily but turn out to be a great blessing. That's true for some not everyone will share that kind of arc.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:48 am
It doesn't look much different in retrospect, there are some big advantages to our "debate centric" culture here, and some big downsides as well.
Agreed. It just seems that most of us are in debate, correct and cite mode by default.
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:48 am
For my part, I can only say I'm trying to throw out some semi-productive critical thinking for the journey, the kind of stuff that people shared with me. not trying to jump down the OP's throat or anything.
Yeah I mean much of the stuff from you and others in this thread has been productive and critical no doubt. Much of it essential once the ball is rolling in that direction. I wasn't remarking on any particular posts or members here. There have been way worse intro threads where it seems people have been scared away or offended from the offset.
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 10:39 am
Vasana makes a point that needs consideration, alongside the demonstrable fact that there are people on the forum who have been circling the runway for years., which also needs considering.
Yeah it's the runway circlers and fence sitters that are in more need of the heavy treatment. They will have built up a thicker skin for it. Submit to our knowledge so we can hold you at peace :stirthepot:
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:29 pm

Vasana wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 8:31 am
On the one hand I get why more experienced practitioners set out to unpick newly interested seekers' views and on the other I imagine how differently these kinds of dialogues would pan out face to face, in a 'lower gear', so to speak. But I get that's just my approach and won't be universally correct either; I.e, just giving simple encouragements, book, video and teacher recommendations and focusing on positive reinforcement rather than the more deconstructive integration styles. Making the dharma sound as pallatable and medicinal as possible rather than focussing on the obscurations of any new seeker.( that can come later, once they're suffused enough by the Dharma they already appreciate). A vast library to be explored that will unravel our assumptions gradually and over time.

Early impressions and interactions count a lot for some people and I just wonder to what degree and consequence ( if any) we move a bit too fast and heavy when speaking to new members.

(Bit of a meta-duscussion in this post but hopefully it contributes something)
A person asked a question about their experience viz, "realization," and discovered their realization does not fall within the range of right view in Buddhadharma. What's the problem?

It's just obvious there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept that there is one universal consciousness, just as there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept of a creator god. What are we supposed to do? Coddle people's misconceptions in hope that if we are sufficiently gentle they will somehow wake up from their misonconceptions. No. It is better to be honest and direct with people from the start. We don't need people to become Buddhists. We need them to understand what Dharma is and what Dharma is not. Then they can make an informed choice about what path to follow.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by cjdevries » Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:32 pm

Vasana wrote: "Yeah I had a similar experience. I think this kind of mimics lots of traditional story arcs of encountering useful guides and freinds who might not flatter or humour us so easily but turn out to be a great blessing. That's true for some not everyone will share that kind of arc."

That reminds me of one friend I met, who said something really weird about me the first time he met me. It kinda pissed me off, but he was pointing out something to me that I had to face about myself. He ended up being a good friend. The first time I met him I thought man this guy is so weird why would he say that about me. Sometimes our best teachers say things we don't want to hear. He's a qigong healer and ended up teaching me a great deal. He ended up actually being a normal guy, he was just telling me something he sensed about my energy field in order to help me.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by cjdevries » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:10 pm

To amend what I said earlier about compassion being sufficient, I understand that compassion without any spiritual practice is sort of like a dead end. I was trying to say that being compassionate helps you create affinities with the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas so that they can guide you to the correct spiritual practices to lead you to liberation. Compassion in and of itself doesn't lead to Buddhahood. Compassionate people find immeasurable benefits on the path to Buddhahood. However, without realization someone is still circling in samsara, they might be very compassionate in this life and then their past karma may ripens and they find it more difficult to be compassionate because of adverse karmic circumstances. Realization has to come first.

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:32 pm

Vasana wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:08 pm


Agreed. It just seems that most of us are in debate, correct and cite mode by default.
Yeah, I often think it's too much, but easy to get caught up in. I think part of is it is that people develop this "oh, not this question again" sort of attitude, almost a kind of fatigue. I've seen the same thing happen in meatspace Dharma, where new/prospective students bring up the same stuff over and over again at public talks. Really it should be a time to go deeper, but it doesn't work out that way and a lot of the time we end up just grumbling at someone else due to our fatigue with questions that are quite reasonable - if basic.
Vasana wrote:
Yeah I mean much of the stuff from you and others in this thread has been productive and critical no doubt. Much of it essential once the ball is rolling in that direction. I wasn't remarking on any particular posts or members here. There have been way worse intro threads where it seems people have been scared away or offended from the offset..............

......Yeah it's the runway circlers and fence sitters that are in more need of the heavy treatment. They will have built up a thicker skin for it. Submit to our knowledge so we can hold you at peace :stirthepot:
This is a good point for contemplation of how the forum operation in general.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

-James Low

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Re: Sudden Realization

Post by Vasana » Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:29 pm
A person asked a question about their experience viz, "realization," and discovered their realization does not fall within the range of right view in Buddhadharma. What's the problem?

It's just obvious there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept that there is one universal consciousness, just as there is no room in Buddhadharma for the concept of a creator god. What are we supposed to do? Coddle people's misconceptions in hope that if we are sufficiently gentle they will somehow wake up from their misonconceptions. No. It is better to be honest and direct with people from the start. We don't need people to become Buddhists. We need them to understand what Dharma is and what Dharma is not. Then they can make an informed choice about what path to follow.
Sure, I'm in agreement with the need to not feed people's misconceptions but there are ways of doing it that magnetize, attract and spark people's drive towards learning, discovery and enquiry and there are ways that cause some to feel defensive, shut down and attacked even. The same words could draw one person closer and another further away.

Lacking the tone and other inter-personal subtleties of real life interactions, online debates can actually be quite intimidating and adrenaline + cortisol fueling. Even if you or others are perfectly relaxed when posting, there's no guarantee new bright-eyed and bushy-tailed members ( perhaps on their first forum) always will be. You're obviously one of the most qualified people on here to teach and straighten up misconceptions and I'm not here to suggest you or anyone go about things differently as like JD pointed out, sometimes it's exactly what is needed. But with that said, different people have different inclinations; towards , teachers, styles, presentations and people in general. It's the same with all of us on here.

I think there's possible benefit in learning to 'read the room' and get an impression of the tone of the OP and having that inform our replies more. I really don't want to make it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is since I get not everyone has this experience and it could be a non-issue in the grand scheme of dharmic and karmic interactions.
cjdevries wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 5:32 pm
That reminds me of one friend I met, who said something really weird about me the first time he met me. It kinda pissed me off, but he was pointing out something to me that I had to face about myself. He ended up being a good friend.
Yeah exactly. Which is why it's difficult for there to be a universal stance on the right approach, other than our ability to step back and wonder how many other ways there are of posting what we're about to post and what the possible implications of those variations might be.
Last edited by Vasana on Wed Jan 22, 2020 7:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
ཨོཾ ་ མ ་ ཎི ་ པ ་ དྨེ ་ ཧཱུྃ ། འ ་ ཨ ་ ཧ ་ ཤ ་ ས ་ མ །
Om Mani Peme Hum ། 'A Ah Ha Sha Sa Ma
'When alone, watch your mind,When with others, watch your speech' - Old Kadampa saying

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