That was a good decision. Good for you!SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:44 pmI fully agree, I see doctrine as a form of propaganda but the opposite of having he chane to discover what is your own truth is really important.Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:41 pmIn Buddhism, ignorance is the spiritual issue though, the root of delusion and suffering. Not necessarily ignorance of this or that piece of doctrine - but it can be.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
I made an appointment with a buddhist master near me to discuss my beliefs. I hope he will be able to point me in the right direction
Sudden Realization
Re: Sudden Realization
- SuddenRealization
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Re: Sudden Realization
I love you all, thanks for all the responses and guidance, I'm here to learn so I dont expect my beliefs to align with yours but I truly love hearing your perspectives.
Re: Sudden Realization
No, Dzogchen realization is not a "nondual awareness," since "awareness" is a mistranslation of the term vidyā/rig pa. Vidyā, in Dzogchen texts, refers to knowledge of one's essence (snying po, garbha). For example, the commentary of the Tantra Without Syllables, the main upadesha tantra of the view, states:Shiva wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:57 pm
Dzogchen realization is non-dual awareness; there is no difference. Anyhow, If you disagree with what I am saying that is fine for me as I do not tend to enter on arguments or debates on Dzogchen. Anyhow my suggestion to @SuddenRealization stands, he find it useful or not.
Vidyā (rig pa) is (1) the knowledge of names designated by words; (2) the five sciences (rig pa gnas lnga) such as helpful worldly knowledge like healing, arts and crafts, the treatises, and so on; (3) knowledge (rig pa) as a factor of consciousness, such as sharp and dull worldly knowledge and so on; and (4) the knowledge of the essence (snying po) that permeates all, which is free from ignorance (avidyā), unobscured by the obscurations of ignorance, and so on.
If you carefully read Longchenpa, you find out that in the view of Dzogchen, nonduality is a description of the state of all things that is free from any ontic extremes such as being, nonbeing, and so on. But it is certainly is not the state of Paramshiva described in Trika texts, which regard everything as an expression of Shiva, and thus existent and real. In Dzogchen, even Samantabhadra possessed ignorance at the time of the basis.
When one carefully studies Dzogchen teachings under the direction of a qualified person, one discovers that the promiscuous overuse of the term "nondual" anything in Dzogchen is very misleading. I am not denying that the term "nondual" is used in Dzogchen, because of course it is, but it does not mean the same thing as the nondual state discussed in Advaita and Trika. It just isn't. The Dzogchen usage is grounded in Yogacara language, in this respect, and indeed it is the Yogacarins who prove that mindstreams are independent, unique, and differentiated, while at the same time denying external objects.
On the other hand, Dzogchen does not deny external objects, which is why Longchenpa laughs at the idea that they do not exist, and provides an account in the Treasury of Citations about the relationship and difference between outer objects (rol pa), bodhicitta ()byang chub sems) or the basis (gzhi), and the potential (rtsal) of bodhicitta, which of course is just one's personal state. If you study this carefully, you will understand that calling Dzogchen a nondual system similar to Advaita and Trika is really a huge error. You can understand that again and again, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu explains that the basis, the primordial state is personal, not universal.
Re: Sudden Realization
Ignorance is a very spiritual issue. It is the cause of samsara.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
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Re: Sudden Realization
I should correct myself, I do not think ignorance is a spiritual issue because those who are ignorant havent had the chance to connect to their spiritualty.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:07 amIgnorance is a very spiritual issue. It is the cause of samsara.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
I do feel sorry for those people just like ive felt sorry for myself for just realizing what my reality is a couple of days ago.
Re: Sudden Realization
There are all kinds of ignorance, "not knowing." Even the highest bodhisattvas, beings that can emanate a billion bodies and work for sentient beings in all possible world systems have a subtle trace of ignorance, which is why we do not call them "buddhas."SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:12 amI should correct myself, I do not think ignorance is a spiritual issue because those who are ignorant havent had the chance to connect to their spiritualty.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:07 amIgnorance is a very spiritual issue. It is the cause of samsara.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:18 pm
I am very sorry Malcolm but I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want and ignorance is not an spiritual issue.
I do feel sorry for those people just like ive felt sorry for myself for just realizing what my reality is a couple of days ago.
By contrast, you've barely dipped your toe in a puddle, let alone the ocean of Dharma.
Of course, you can find all kinds of people who are willing to go along with whatever it is you think you have realized, but they are not helping you, actually.
You might think I am not nice, but actually, I am your best friend.
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Re: Sudden Realization
If that were the case, everyone on the Buddhist path, having now connected to their spiritualitySuddenRealization wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 12:12 am I do not think ignorance is a spiritual issue because those who are ignorant havent had the chance to connect to their spiritualty.
would be free of ignorance.
EMPTIFUL.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
An inward outlook produces outward insight.
Re: Sudden Realization
I had a spiritual guide come to me in a dream. He had good energy; he radiated compassion and freedom. He told me that dogma has no use on the other side. A lot of teachers frown on spiritual "soup", taking bits and pieces from different traditions. But this guide, if he can be trusted, which based on the energy of compassion I felt from him, I feel he can, seemed to imply that the spiritual soup way is totally fine. He told me the other side operates on vibration; you feel your gurus or spiritual teachers love and you find yourself in a nice place. You feel love and you find a place of love. Obviously karma plays into it. But it seems like dogma does not play into it very much. Also, I think the other side has a very good sense of humor. What I understand from him is that there is no dogma on the other side, at least in the higher realms. Maybe in the lower realms dogma is needed for mental and spiritual training.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh
"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Sudden Realization
Dogma is not the same thing as View in Buddhism, or Right View if you prefer. I think they are often indistinguishable at first to many of us Westerners who encounter Buddhism, due to a (quite reasonable in some cases) suspicion towards the dogmas of the religions we are culturally affiliated with (whether we like it or not).
Nonethless, Right View is not simply dogma, and is extremely important to the Buddhist path.
The most practical reason to avoid "spiritual soup" is that we cannot properly get somewhere without a map. I mean, we can drive in a general direction, but without a map, instructions and a coherent key to the map, we're driving blind. That doesn't mean that one can never learn anything from another tradition, but we can't constantly swap out maps that go in different directions and still hope to get to a destination.
Nonethless, Right View is not simply dogma, and is extremely important to the Buddhist path.
The most practical reason to avoid "spiritual soup" is that we cannot properly get somewhere without a map. I mean, we can drive in a general direction, but without a map, instructions and a coherent key to the map, we're driving blind. That doesn't mean that one can never learn anything from another tradition, but we can't constantly swap out maps that go in different directions and still hope to get to a destination.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Sudden Realization
And who, may we ask, was this spiritual guide?cjdevries wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 1:27 am I had a spiritual guide come to me in a dream. He had good energy; he radiated compassion and freedom. He told me that dogma has no use on the other side. A lot of teachers frown on spiritual "soup", taking bits and pieces from different traditions. But this guide, if he can be trusted, which based on the energy of compassion I felt from him, I feel he can, seemed to imply that the spiritual soup way is totally fine. He told me the other side operates on vibration; you feel your gurus or spiritual teachers love and you find yourself in a nice place. You feel love and you find a place of love. Obviously karma plays into it. But it seems like dogma does not play into it very much. Also, I think the other side has a very good sense of humor. What I understand from him is that there is no dogma on the other side, at least in the higher realms. Maybe in the lower realms dogma is needed for mental and spiritual training.
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Re: Sudden Realization
The very first thing my teacher tried to teach me was never criticize—or even form an opinion about—my practice or another’s practice. Until and unless I could see the karmas involved all my judgments were nothing other than my own obscurations being articulated. The Dharma will interface with each person’s karma appropriately.
That was over 40 years ago. I have not mastered it yet. I am still judgmental and critical. But I do try to be polite and respectful when possible.
That was over 40 years ago. I have not mastered it yet. I am still judgmental and critical. But I do try to be polite and respectful when possible.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Sudden Realization
I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment. He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom. That is something IMO that you cannot fake. I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic. You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner. They will make you feel their freedom. This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life. It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like. I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master. I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy. But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.
"Please call me by my true names so I can wake up; so the door of my heart can be left open: the door of compassion." -Thich Nhat Hanh
"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
"Ask: what's needed of you" -Akong Rinpoche
"Love never claims, it ever gives. Love ever suffers, never resents, never revenges itself." -Gandhi
Re: Sudden Realization
Why would anyone accept the testimony of dreams of some unknown person on the internet?cjdevries wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:22 am I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment. He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom. That is something IMO that you cannot fake. I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic. You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner. They will make you feel their freedom. This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life. It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like. I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master. I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy. But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.
Re: Sudden Realization
Actually dream-initiations like that are totally acceptable within the Yogic/Vajrayana viewpoint. I do not think is for you to accept his testimony or not, if it is useful for him and other people then it is fine; if it is useless for you then it is also fine.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:56 amWhy would anyone accept the testimony of dreams of some unknown person on the internet?cjdevries wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:22 am I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment. He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom. That is something IMO that you cannot fake. I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic. You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner. They will make you feel their freedom. This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life. It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like. I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master. I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy. But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.
Clinging to written doctrines and concepts is as illusory as clinging to anything else, even if those doctrines claim to lead towards some spiritual realization. Realization is mainly experiential and the ultimate awareness comes as an actual empirical recognition no through rational analysis.
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Re: Sudden Realization
Just look at the history of cults. You can fake peace, compassion etc.cjdevries wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:22 am I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment. He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom. That is something IMO that you cannot fake. I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic. You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner. They will make you feel their freedom. This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life. It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like. I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master. I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy. But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.
Also I would like to remind people that we are on a Buddhist forum. Nice dreams and ideas are nice, but I kinda doubt they are the strenght you are looking for when debating more than 2000 years old philosophical school.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Sudden Realization
Not necessarily.Shiva wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:09 amActually dream-initiations like that are totally acceptable within the Yogic/Vajrayana viewpoint.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:56 amWhy would anyone accept the testimony of dreams of some unknown person on the internet?cjdevries wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:22 am I don't know who the spiritual guide was, he gave off the vibe of a lay person who had come to some level of enlightenment. He was greatly compassionate and exuded peace and freedom. That is something IMO that you cannot fake. I have had other figures come to me in dreams and I can tell right away from their energy when they are inauthentic. You can't fake the qualities of a genuinely realized practitioner. They will make you feel their freedom. This experience I had with this "guide" felt completely real, more real than this life. It felt like what I've heard near death experiences to feel like. I wanted to be in his energy forever, it was like being in the presence of a master. I don't like to talk about my experiences too much, because I find it dissipates some of their energy. But this guide who came to me made me feel so free that I feel like he wouldn't mind if I shared the experience.
There are criteria for establishing the validity of such experiences which are described in the intimate instructions of Vajrayāna. You cannot use great tertons as examples, since these people are realized persons already, being bodhisattvas on the paths and stages: for example, my root gurus Chogyal Namkhai Norbu and Kunzang Dechen Lingpa, as well as Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok.
Howver, the dream experience of ordinary people is not to be trusted.
All teachings must be subject to rational analysis, as the Buddha said, one must examine teachings, including his, in the same way a goldsmith evaluates the purity of gold: by weighing, cutting, and burning.Clinging to written doctrines and concepts is as illusory as clinging to anything else, even if those doctrines claim to lead towards some spiritual realization. Realization is mainly experiential and the ultimate awareness comes as an actual empirical recognition no through rational analysis.
BTW, "empirical recognition" means that such a teaching is evaluated through the consensus of people without special knowledge or special faculties, who verify this or that fact through rational analysis. I think perhaps you mean "direct perception," such as that involved in tasting sugar, which cannot be described to someone who has never tasted anything sweet. Saying "sugar is sweet" means nothing to such a person.
However, even realization may be gauged through the kinds of experiences one has, which is why in Vajrayāna teachings, and even in sūtra, the criteria set out for what a realized person experiences is very carefully mapped in order that people who are practicing the path can distinguish between valid experience and delusion.
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Re: Sudden Realization
Malcolm, I would like to share that while I can see you seriously know your stuff, and I'm happy you're sharing your honest opinions. I am just looking for what fits with me, and while I do agree my views are not compatible with traditional buddhism, I do not believe they are compatible with any major spiritual stream. I just want to find what works for me.
My views are my personal experiences. I do not expect to fit in anywhere 100%, I'm just looking for what works best for me.
My views are my personal experiences. I do not expect to fit in anywhere 100%, I'm just looking for what works best for me.
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Re: Sudden Realization
In some respects this make sense, we all need to approach things in our way, and according to our condition.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:14 pm Malcolm, I would like to share that while I can see you seriously know your stuff, and I'm happy you're sharing your honest opinions. I am just looking for what fits with me, and while I do agree my views are not compatible with traditional buddhism, I do not believe they are compatible with any major spiritual stream. I just want to find what works for me.
My views are my personal experiences. I do not expect to fit in anywhere 100%, I'm just looking for what works best for me.
However, simply approaching the spiritual path to "find what works for me" is a bit of a contradictory task. Right now you are not an enlightened being, and do not really have any idea "what works for you", none of us do, maybe some a glimmer. That's the whole point of following a spiritual tradition and teacher, we rely on them until such time as we've had adequate experience to gain faith in teachings because we've "been there". If we begin by picking and choosing only those things which make sense to us at the beginning of the search, we are just satisfying the very delusions that got us interested in spirituality in the first place.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Sudden Realization
What you need is a teacher. No one, absolutely no one, can figure this shit out by themselves.SuddenRealization wrote: ↑Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:14 pm Malcolm, I would like to share that while I can see you seriously know your stuff, and I'm happy you're sharing your honest opinions. I am just looking for what fits with me, and while I do agree my views are not compatible with traditional buddhism, I do not believe they are compatible with any major spiritual stream. I just want to find what works for me.
My views are my personal experiences. I do not expect to fit in anywhere 100%, I'm just looking for what works best for me.
Experience without right view is like driving in a strange country with no map, with no idea where you are going.