Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:02 am

Malcolm wrote:
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
That's all Mahāmudra is.



Seems like a tricky way of seeing it, realization of the nature of mind would always be non-gradual wouldn't it? Sustaining that realization on the other hand would have to be gradual for the vast majority of folks.


No. Once you have seen the nature of the mind, that is all there is to do.


If that's all there was to do you'd be done with any and all formal practice after a successful introduction or pointing out. Maybe that's true for a very small percentage, but seems very unlikely for most. Even Garab Dorje's Three Statements are more than just one thing to do!
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby conebeckham » Wed Jan 11, 2017 7:02 am

Matt J wrote:Why do you say that?

conebeckham wrote:Certainly, for Dzogchen, we can say this...but I think the "referent" pointed out in Dzogchen is, maybe, potentially, a bit different.

I'm parroting Kongtrul. Everything up to SemDe does not go "beyond mind." longDe, and especially MenNgakDe (Nyingthik), do, in fact, Go "beyond mind." I believe this to be a correct statement, but I choose not to elaborate further.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:56 pm

I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:14 pm

Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:09 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!

Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?


Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Justmeagain » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.


I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.


And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!

How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Astus » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:40 pm

Justmeagain wrote:How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?


One can find common elements between the Great Seal and Just Sitting. Both are meant as the realisation of the ultimate truth, for instance. Both view the ultimate wisdom as the absence of attachment and detachment. Both see beings as originally enlightened and appearances as originally pure.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby Malcolm » Thu Jan 12, 2017 2:48 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:
I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?


Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.


And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!

How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?


Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby passel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:07 am

Just had a thought looking over this thread, about a line from a Kobun Chino talk (I think the talk was called "No No Zero" or something like that.

He said that zazen, and he's Soto so he'd be talking about shikantaza (which of course isn't a thing you can point to which is how threads like this get so long), is the absence of samadhi. If I'm remembering right, he said that we're in samadhi all day long- hungry samadhi, angry samadhi, horny samadhi, content samadhi, exalted samadhi, whatever. Zazen (which of course he means more expansively than literally just sitting) is when we abandon samadhi. I might even add "are free from the tyranny of samadhi."

The language resonates with some of the lines like "not meditating, not being distracted," that Tulku Urgyen was so fond of.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby passel » Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:19 am

And while it's on my mind, sounds like some of the amanasi/amanasikara instructions, which in turn always makes me think of Uchiyama's opening the hand of thought.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Postby fckw » Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:he second is called "vipaśyāna," because one recognizes that movement and calmness are identical in nature.

Now I'm curious - what instructions are usually given out on this particular point in Sutra-Mahamudra?


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