Ashe Mahamudra retreats

TrimePema
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by TrimePema » Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:03 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:37 am
heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 4:48 am


"Shambala training" was created by Trungpa Rinpoche as non-religious path of wisdom. "Shambhala Buddhism training" was created by the Sakyong and contains a mix of Shambala training and Vajrayana. Any statements by Dilgo Khyentse can only refer to "Shambala training" as there was no "Shambhala Buddhism training" when he lived.

/magnus
What part of original CTR Shambhala training was not Vajrayana? What part of Shambhala Buddhism training is new?
I been told this by multiple Trungpa students who where pretty upset when the Sakyong decided to make them in to single system. It should be pretty easy to google. It is a bit weird that you don't even know what parts are Vajrayana and what parts are Shambhala. If you really don't know you should talk with an old Trungpa student preferably someone who did both paths.

/magnus
... It's weird? I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Shambhala teachings are terma. They are not separate from Buddhism and that is the distinction SMR made by calling it Shambhala Buddhism. CTR never made teachings that were secular, he just called Dzogchen and Mahamudra secular.

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heart
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by heart » Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:03 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:37 am


What part of original CTR Shambhala training was not Vajrayana? What part of Shambhala Buddhism training is new?
I been told this by multiple Trungpa students who where pretty upset when the Sakyong decided to make them in to single system. It should be pretty easy to google. It is a bit weird that you don't even know what parts are Vajrayana and what parts are Shambhala. If you really don't know you should talk with an old Trungpa student preferably someone who did both paths.

/magnus
... It's weird? I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Shambhala teachings are terma. They are not separate from Buddhism and that is the distinction SMR made by calling it Shambhala Buddhism. CTR never made teachings that were secular, he just called Dzogchen and Mahamudra secular.
Whatever, I just told you what old Trungpa students told me. Shambala was taught separate from Vajrayana when Trungpa was alive. You could do both, or just one or the other but they where not mixed. That is all.

All the best!

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

TrimePema
Posts: 131
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by TrimePema » Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:16 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:03 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:40 am


I been told this by multiple Trungpa students who where pretty upset when the Sakyong decided to make them in to single system. It should be pretty easy to google. It is a bit weird that you don't even know what parts are Vajrayana and what parts are Shambhala. If you really don't know you should talk with an old Trungpa student preferably someone who did both paths.

/magnus
... It's weird? I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Shambhala teachings are terma. They are not separate from Buddhism and that is the distinction SMR made by calling it Shambhala Buddhism. CTR never made teachings that were secular, he just called Dzogchen and Mahamudra secular.
Whatever, I just told you what old Trungpa students told me. Shambala was taught separate from Vajrayana when Trungpa was alive. You could do both, or just one or the other but they where not mixed. That is all.

All the best!

/magnus
Hm. My understanding is that the Shambhala terma are Dzogchen teachings and CTR was only teaching (directly) Mahamudra when he was alive. He wanted to teach the Shambhala terma in its entirety but never got to the last book in a "public" setting, which is called Scorpion Seal, which contains the four fold Dzogchen path of Shambhala. The Sakyong then began teaching Scorpion Seal about 10 years ago or so. This switching of the Shambhala path from Kagyu to Nyingma was a big point of contention. Now they do both but I think the Kagyu side is not emphasized by the Sakyong and is lead mostly by the old students of CTR but I am not sure.

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heart
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by heart » Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:21 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:16 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 5:03 pm


... It's weird? I feel like there was a misunderstanding. Shambhala teachings are terma. They are not separate from Buddhism and that is the distinction SMR made by calling it Shambhala Buddhism. CTR never made teachings that were secular, he just called Dzogchen and Mahamudra secular.
Whatever, I just told you what old Trungpa students told me. Shambala was taught separate from Vajrayana when Trungpa was alive. You could do both, or just one or the other but they where not mixed. That is all.

All the best!

/magnus
Hm. My understanding is that the Shambhala terma are Dzogchen teachings and CTR was only teaching (directly) Mahamudra when he was alive. He wanted to teach the Shambhala terma in its entirety but never got to the last book in a "public" setting, which is called Scorpion Seal, which contains the four fold Dzogchen path of Shambhala. The Sakyong then began teaching Scorpion Seal about 10 years ago or so. This switching of the Shambhala path from Kagyu to Nyingma was a big point of contention. Now they do both but I think the Kagyu side is not emphasized by the Sakyong and is lead mostly by the old students of CTR but I am not sure.
Well, I guess that is the Shambala Buddhism mythology, it don't correspond so much to what I heard.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

misterkel
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Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by misterkel » Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:21 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:16 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 7:18 pm


Whatever, I just told you what old Trungpa students told me. Shambala was taught separate from Vajrayana when Trungpa was alive. You could do both, or just one or the other but they where not mixed. That is all.

All the best!

/magnus
Hm. My understanding is that the Shambhala terma are Dzogchen teachings and CTR was only teaching (directly) Mahamudra when he was alive. He wanted to teach the Shambhala terma in its entirety but never got to the last book in a "public" setting, which is called Scorpion Seal, which contains the four fold Dzogchen path of Shambhala. The Sakyong then began teaching Scorpion Seal about 10 years ago or so. This switching of the Shambhala path from Kagyu to Nyingma was a big point of contention. Now they do both but I think the Kagyu side is not emphasized by the Sakyong and is lead mostly by the old students of CTR but I am not sure.
Well, I guess that is the Shambala Buddhism mythology, it don't correspond so much to what I heard.

/magnus

Having followed this path and the Kagyu path for decades, I can speak to this question. The Sakyong is making an extremely diligent effort to roll out the Shambhala terma exactly as written. Many older CTR students are now following this path- so it's not a case of 'the older students all disagree.' Disagreements come from a vocal minority. However, a number of CTR students do NOT follow the Shambhala path, but have no fundamental disagreement with the current Sakyong's presentation of it. They wisely make no comment save that it is not their path.

The terma speak of and reference Tantric deities and concepts repeatedly throughout them. Vajrakilya and the Vajrassatva mantra are both presented as points of comparison and as actual practice methodologies in the terma and CTR's original commentary. He spoke of Shambhala and Buddhism as forest and trees, as sky and clouds, as integrally linked without real separation.
Terma is, by its very definition, a Vajrayana concept, therefore it is contradictory to speak of non-Vajrayana terma - like a square circle.
Furthermore, the original Shambhala concept stems directly from the Kalachakra tantra - which everyone knows is the Buddha's primary delivery of Tantra to the Earth.

Students who claim that Shambhala is non-Buddhist do not comprehend the terma and have not studied it sufficiently. (Not claiming to comprehend it myself, to be clear - it is quite esoteric). CTR compared the two many times. The common understanding, expressed by Mipham Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, and others is that the terma is of a higher Dzokchen division corresponding to quintessential instruction.

Shambhala Training is a specific, methodology of entering this path and training to later pursue, if desired, the full tantric path of the four terma. It is drawn from the terma, but covers only a small part of the material in those texts.
Hope this helps.

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heart
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by heart » Sat Nov 24, 2018 3:54 pm

misterkel wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:21 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:16 pm


Hm. My understanding is that the Shambhala terma are Dzogchen teachings and CTR was only teaching (directly) Mahamudra when he was alive. He wanted to teach the Shambhala terma in its entirety but never got to the last book in a "public" setting, which is called Scorpion Seal, which contains the four fold Dzogchen path of Shambhala. The Sakyong then began teaching Scorpion Seal about 10 years ago or so. This switching of the Shambhala path from Kagyu to Nyingma was a big point of contention. Now they do both but I think the Kagyu side is not emphasized by the Sakyong and is lead mostly by the old students of CTR but I am not sure.
Well, I guess that is the Shambala Buddhism mythology, it don't correspond so much to what I heard.

/magnus

Having followed this path and the Kagyu path for decades, I can speak to this question. The Sakyong is making an extremely diligent effort to roll out the Shambhala terma exactly as written. Many older CTR students are now following this path- so it's not a case of 'the older students all disagree.' Disagreements come from a vocal minority. However, a number of CTR students do NOT follow the Shambhala path, but have no fundamental disagreement with the current Sakyong's presentation of it. They wisely make no comment save that it is not their path.

The terma speak of and reference Tantric deities and concepts repeatedly throughout them. Vajrakilya and the Vajrassatva mantra are both presented as points of comparison and as actual practice methodologies in the terma and CTR's original commentary. He spoke of Shambhala and Buddhism as forest and trees, as sky and clouds, as integrally linked without real separation.
Terma is, by its very definition, a Vajrayana concept, therefore it is contradictory to speak of non-Vajrayana terma - like a square circle.
Furthermore, the original Shambhala concept stems directly from the Kalachakra tantra - which everyone knows is the Buddha's primary delivery of Tantra to the Earth.

Students who claim that Shambhala is non-Buddhist do not comprehend the terma and have not studied it sufficiently. (Not claiming to comprehend it myself, to be clear - it is quite esoteric). CTR compared the two many times. The common understanding, expressed by Mipham Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse, and others is that the terma is of a higher Dzokchen division corresponding to quintessential instruction.

Shambhala Training is a specific, methodology of entering this path and training to later pursue, if desired, the full tantric path of the four terma. It is drawn from the terma, but covers only a small part of the material in those texts.
Hope this helps.
Well, not saying you are wrong because facts are truly something multifaceted. However in the preface of the "Shambala: Sacred path of the warrior" Trungpa Rinpoche writes:
I would like to make it clear, however, that this book doesn't reveal any of the secrets from the Buddhists tantric tradition of Shambala teachings, nor does it present the philosophy of the Kalachakra. Rather, this book is a manual for people that have lost the principles of sacredness, dignity and warriorship in their lives.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by Malcolm » Sat Nov 24, 2018 4:02 pm

misterkel wrote:
Sat Nov 24, 2018 2:34 pm
However, a number of CTR students do NOT follow the Shambhala path, but have no fundamental disagreement with the current Sakyong's presentation of it.
And a number of CTR students of both long and short term acquaintance of mine do follow the Shambhala Path, and are dismayed that is has been altered from how CTR presented it in its original form.

I predict there is going to be a split in the tree, where some older students of CTR will begin presenting Shambhala Training, including the terma texts, as it was originally conceived by CTR.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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BaronAsh
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by BaronAsh » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:42 am

Came to this board to get a sense of what is happening with my old community. Was a hard core Vajradhatu-Shambhala member for quite a while. Not sure if it will help self or others to post here but on this topic let me just say that I don't think there are any easy answers because - as with nearly everything in life, but especially spiritual matters perhaps, there are multiple levels at play simultaneously.

These multiple levels create overt need for secrecy as well as so-called 'self-secrecy' (in that if you lack insight about X you will not understand much even if it is being discussed in front of you, thus it is self-secret). Some aspects of Shambhala teachings were kept officially secret in that they can only be transmitted formally in restricted situations by officially empowered people. Other aspects were wide open and presented to the public.

Of course ultimately, even the super secret stuff has the same basic nature as rocks, trees, the elements, mind, space and so on.

Now on the outer historical level, as someone who worked in the Shambhala Training Office in the early years and was one of the early Resident Directors (NYC as it happens), I know quite a bit about the early outer developments, namely:
At first, the ideal situation clearly recommended by CTR was to have Shambhala Training function as a truly independent and separate operation.
Needless to say, this never happened in a pure way simply because the people staffing the weekends were all volunteers from the buddhist 'Dharmadhatu Centers.' However, in many cases at first (because at first it was only offered in places with large, established sanghas, namely Boulder, Boston, NYC and San Francisco - the latter being small, but in a great spot and with a very well established sangha from Year One of CTR in the USA).

Either it was administered separately by the Resident DIrectors with their own separate promotional materials, or in Boulder actual separate offices were rented, or Oddfellows Halls for the weekend programs (so that they did not take place in the large Dharmadhatu Shrine Room) and so forth.

So that historical, outer level guideline is one basis for the widespread conviction - especially held amongst older students - that the two paths (BuddhaDharma and Shambhala) are separate. Also CTR himself often emphasized that Shambhala was not some sort of watered-down or disguised buddhism.

That said, in a way it's similar to the difference between, say, Hinayana and Vajrayana in that from the pov of Hin. certain aspects of Vajrayana experience seem like they are taking place on another planet. They present - in the literal present - an experientially different reality. The air we breath, the colours we see, the earth we stand on, the body we navigate in, they all feel different.

So that gets back to multiple levels of reality, or experience and so forth.

Yes, you can argue - if you really know your stuff - that Shambhala is all dzogchen, ultimately. But I think that is not quite accurate. Btw, I don't know what the current Sakyong is teaching in terms of the Ashe Mahamudra retreats or the Scorpion Seal materials since have been away from the official community for many years now which has nothing to do with content presentation per se but more to do with personal dynamics along with group dynamics which have felt are mutually incompatible for some time.

The reason it is not accurate is that, just as CTR said many times, Shambhala stands on its own. Indeed, it is based more on a society mandala, or a country mandala basis, rather than a spiritual community basis, aka 'sangha'. I think this is the core disagreement, actually, between many of us older 'dogs' who have been fading away steadily since around 1990-ish, and those who have stuck with it. Although I have discussed this with only a handful of people (I really have been out of it) over the years, I think I can speak for many in saying that the real problem with the amalgamation of Shambhala and Buddhism into one overall thing, and even though the reasons for doing so administratively were eminently reasonable for practical reasons (as he put it: I cannot have one body with two heads), is that it has turned Shambhala into just another spiritual community, or church mandala. That was not the purpose or thrust. The Shambhala terma provide a basis for a national/societal/village/secular culture.

I believe there could be a way for the terma to be taught in a much more down-to-earth person-to-person fashion, but that too might turn them into yet another spiritual stream, and if so the Buddhadharma already exists for that. Nobody is stopping any of CTR's old students from promulgating Hinayana and Mahayana and maybe also in secret, vajrayana. Officially, the terma texts cannot be transmitted from one individual to another except in the context of institutionally mandated formats, which is mainly the Shambhala Training program (or whatever it's called nowadays). But at the same time, old students have a lot to pass on that many might find helpful, and hopefully at some point there will be an opening of all that sort of stuff so that things can just spread naturally with less hoo-ha.

But the core difference between a set of spiritual teachings whose main thrust is to create a social mandala or culture as opposed to a spiritual community apart from conventional society is something that remains some sort of dynamic koan for CTR's and now SMR's student bodies. It has not yet been resolved. And clearly there are many other issues those communities are struggling with, though personally I think all the sex and drug stuff is actually a symptom of these underlying challenges and, ultimately, not nearly as big a deal as people tend to make of them, juicy-looking as they are as headline materials in the public sphere.

PeterC
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Re: Ashe Mahamudra retreats

Post by PeterC » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:00 am

"The friend said to the devil, ‘What did that man pick up?’
‘He picked up a piece of Truth,’ said the devil.
‘That is a very bad business for you, then,’ said his friend.
‘Oh, not at all,’ the devil replied, ‘I am going to let them organize it.’”

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