Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

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dharmagoat
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:18 pm

Sherlock wrote:Untrained eyes thought Dzogchen and Chan are similar too.

They were still wrong.

pls read the articles here: http://earlytibet.com/2007/11/13/tibeta ... rors-chan/
I may be missing something, but this article seems to confirm that elements of Ch'an were incorporated into Vajrayāna in the early history of Buddhism in Tibet.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Sherlock » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:25 pm

Read the quote above I posted and all of part V

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Malcolm
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:34 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But given that the term "mahāmudra" never appears in any sūtra...
Is it possible that Mahāmudra was a development of Chinese Mahāyāna that made its way back to India and was then appropriated by Vajrayāna without an acknowledgement of its origin?
Not a chance.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:39 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Sherlock wrote:What makes you even think there is a direct link between Chan and Mahamudra?
The similarity is plain for everyone to see.
How so? Mahāmudra (as in four yogas of mahāmudra) as practiced in the Kagyu tradition is a gradual approach based as much on the Bhavanakrama as it is the dohas; Chan/Zen is always a sudden approach.

In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.

DG, have you ever received teachings on any of this? It just seems to me that you are engaging in a lot of proliferation around these issues.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:But given that the term "mahāmudra" never appears in any sūtra...
Is it possible that Mahāmudra was a development of Chinese Mahāyāna that made its way back to India and was then appropriated by Vajrayāna without an acknowledgement of its origin?
Not a chance.
What do you base that on? I ask so that I may get a better idea of why it is so unlikely.

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Malcolm
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:46 pm

dharmagoat wrote: What do you base that on? I ask so that I may get a better idea of why it is so unlikely.
There are two places where the term mahāmudra is used; the first is in Yoga tantra, where it refers primarily to the form of the deity. The second is in anuttarayoga tantra where it is described as the siddhi of mahāmudra, an accomplishment, the attainment of Buddhahood.

In other words, the term arises solely in connection with Vajrayāna practice.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:DG, have you ever received teachings on any of this? It just seems to me that you are engaging in a lot of proliferation around these issues.
I was given permission to study Mahāmudrā by a traditional Tibetan lama who recognised that I was stagnating with the ngöndro practices set by my refuge lama. I was given a sādhanā to perform each day but never received any formal Mahāmudrā teachings from him. Even after I left Vajrayāna I still retained an interest in it.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
I suspect this is an oversimplification of Soto Zen, but I do acknowledge the point you are making.

"One taste" does occur in the Zen literature, as far as I am aware.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:13 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
I suspect this is an oversimplification of Soto Zen.

"One taste" does occur in the Zen literature, as far as I am aware.
Talk to some Soto folks.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?

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Malcolm
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:20 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?
Dogen didn't seem to think so.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?
Dogen didn't seem to think so.
Dōgen lived in Japan in the 13th century, contact between Ch'an and Vajrayāna in Tibet took place in the 8th/9th century. There is a large distance and at least 400 years in between.

Also, it has already been noted that Ch'an/Zen has more scope for reinterpretation than Vajrayāna.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Sherlock » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:41 pm

I am still not sure why you keep bringing up Chan/Vajrayana connections. Van Schaik quite clearly explains there is little relationship between them that cannot be ascribed to a common basis in general Buddhism.

This is in Tibet, where Chan and Vajrayana interacted. In India itself it's even less likely Chan had any influence.

If you want to know more about 9th century Chan read the Samten Migdron.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:00 pm

Sherlock wrote:I am still not sure why you keep bringing up Chan/Vajrayana connections. Van Schaik quite clearly explains there is little relationship between them that cannot be ascribed to a common basis in general Buddhism.

This is in Tibet, where Chan and Vajrayana interacted. In India itself it's even less likely Chan had any influence.

If you want to know more about 9th century Chan read the Samten Migdron.
After discussing it here and reading the article you recommended, I tend to agree that their similarity can be attributed to a process resembling parallel evolution.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Sherlock » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:09 pm

Sorry I don't agree it's parallel evolution. The practice of Chan is not really parallel to Mahamudra or Dzogchen as Malcolm explained before.

Practices similar to "Just sitting" are present in Dunhuang Chan texts and quoted in the Samten Migdron.

Nubchen Sangye Yeshe brings up the example of someone holding up a needle against the sky to thread it better. He seems to be lloking at the sky while he is looking at the needle. Or a chicken pecking at seeds at the ground seems to be looking at the ground while it is actually looking at the seeds. Chan is like the needle-threader or the chicken compared to Vajrayana, which looks at the sky/ground. They look similar to an outsider but if you study them closely they are not.

Nubchen considered Chan superior to gradual Mahayana but still inferior to Vajrayana BTW. And he studied both Chan and Vajrayana.

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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:37 pm

dharmagoat wrote: Dōgen lived in Japan in the 13th century,
What I meant was that Dogen did not seem to think that his Shikantaza was innovative or his own approach.
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