I may be missing something, but this article seems to confirm that elements of Ch'an were incorporated into Vajrayāna in the early history of Buddhism in Tibet.Sherlock wrote:Untrained eyes thought Dzogchen and Chan are similar too.
They were still wrong.
pls read the articles here: http://earlytibet.com/2007/11/13/tibeta ... rors-chan/
Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
- dharmagoat
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Read the quote above I posted and all of part V
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Not a chance.dharmagoat wrote:Is it possible that Mahāmudra was a development of Chinese Mahāyāna that made its way back to India and was then appropriated by Vajrayāna without an acknowledgement of its origin?Malcolm wrote:But given that the term "mahāmudra" never appears in any sūtra...
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
How so? Mahāmudra (as in four yogas of mahāmudra) as practiced in the Kagyu tradition is a gradual approach based as much on the Bhavanakrama as it is the dohas; Chan/Zen is always a sudden approach.dharmagoat wrote:The similarity is plain for everyone to see.Sherlock wrote:What makes you even think there is a direct link between Chan and Mahamudra?
In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
DG, have you ever received teachings on any of this? It just seems to me that you are engaging in a lot of proliferation around these issues.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
What do you base that on? I ask so that I may get a better idea of why it is so unlikely.Malcolm wrote:Not a chance.dharmagoat wrote:Is it possible that Mahāmudra was a development of Chinese Mahāyāna that made its way back to India and was then appropriated by Vajrayāna without an acknowledgement of its origin?Malcolm wrote:But given that the term "mahāmudra" never appears in any sūtra...
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
There are two places where the term mahāmudra is used; the first is in Yoga tantra, where it refers primarily to the form of the deity. The second is in anuttarayoga tantra where it is described as the siddhi of mahāmudra, an accomplishment, the attainment of Buddhahood.dharmagoat wrote: What do you base that on? I ask so that I may get a better idea of why it is so unlikely.
In other words, the term arises solely in connection with Vajrayāna practice.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
I was given permission to study Mahāmudrā by a traditional Tibetan lama who recognised that I was stagnating with the ngöndro practices set by my refuge lama. I was given a sādhanā to perform each day but never received any formal Mahāmudrā teachings from him. Even after I left Vajrayāna I still retained an interest in it.Malcolm wrote:DG, have you ever received teachings on any of this? It just seems to me that you are engaging in a lot of proliferation around these issues.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
I suspect this is an oversimplification of Soto Zen, but I do acknowledge the point you are making.Malcolm wrote:In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
"One taste" does occur in the Zen literature, as far as I am aware.
Last edited by dharmagoat on Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Talk to some Soto folks.dharmagoat wrote:I suspect this is an oversimplification of Soto Zen.Malcolm wrote:In other words, in Kagyu mahāmudra practice, you have to develop one-pointedness first, then non-proliferation, then one taste, etc. Whereas in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
"One taste" does occur in the Zen literature, as far as I am aware.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Dogen didn't seem to think so.dharmagoat wrote:Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Dōgen lived in Japan in the 13th century, contact between Ch'an and Vajrayāna in Tibet took place in the 8th/9th century. There is a large distance and at least 400 years in between.Malcolm wrote:Dogen didn't seem to think so.dharmagoat wrote:Could this be a later development in Ch'an/Zen?Malcolm wrote:... in Soto Zen, for example, "Just sitting" is considered Buddhahood itself.
Also, it has already been noted that Ch'an/Zen has more scope for reinterpretation than Vajrayāna.
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
I am still not sure why you keep bringing up Chan/Vajrayana connections. Van Schaik quite clearly explains there is little relationship between them that cannot be ascribed to a common basis in general Buddhism.
This is in Tibet, where Chan and Vajrayana interacted. In India itself it's even less likely Chan had any influence.
If you want to know more about 9th century Chan read the Samten Migdron.
This is in Tibet, where Chan and Vajrayana interacted. In India itself it's even less likely Chan had any influence.
If you want to know more about 9th century Chan read the Samten Migdron.
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Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
After discussing it here and reading the article you recommended, I tend to agree that their similarity can be attributed to a process resembling parallel evolution.Sherlock wrote:I am still not sure why you keep bringing up Chan/Vajrayana connections. Van Schaik quite clearly explains there is little relationship between them that cannot be ascribed to a common basis in general Buddhism.
This is in Tibet, where Chan and Vajrayana interacted. In India itself it's even less likely Chan had any influence.
If you want to know more about 9th century Chan read the Samten Migdron.
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
Sorry I don't agree it's parallel evolution. The practice of Chan is not really parallel to Mahamudra or Dzogchen as Malcolm explained before.
Practices similar to "Just sitting" are present in Dunhuang Chan texts and quoted in the Samten Migdron.
Nubchen Sangye Yeshe brings up the example of someone holding up a needle against the sky to thread it better. He seems to be lloking at the sky while he is looking at the needle. Or a chicken pecking at seeds at the ground seems to be looking at the ground while it is actually looking at the seeds. Chan is like the needle-threader or the chicken compared to Vajrayana, which looks at the sky/ground. They look similar to an outsider but if you study them closely they are not.
Nubchen considered Chan superior to gradual Mahayana but still inferior to Vajrayana BTW. And he studied both Chan and Vajrayana.
Practices similar to "Just sitting" are present in Dunhuang Chan texts and quoted in the Samten Migdron.
Nubchen Sangye Yeshe brings up the example of someone holding up a needle against the sky to thread it better. He seems to be lloking at the sky while he is looking at the needle. Or a chicken pecking at seeds at the ground seems to be looking at the ground while it is actually looking at the seeds. Chan is like the needle-threader or the chicken compared to Vajrayana, which looks at the sky/ground. They look similar to an outsider but if you study them closely they are not.
Nubchen considered Chan superior to gradual Mahayana but still inferior to Vajrayana BTW. And he studied both Chan and Vajrayana.
Re: Gaden mahamudra (kagyu/gelug mahamudra)
What I meant was that Dogen did not seem to think that his Shikantaza was innovative or his own approach.dharmagoat wrote: Dōgen lived in Japan in the 13th century,