Mahamudra in the Modern World

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:11 pm

asunthatneversets wrote:
conebeckham wrote:The four of us....and who went for coffee without me?
Crazywisdom and I quite a few times, you're more than welcome to join!
Yeah I would love coffee time with my precious :group: vajra brothers.
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Huh?
TD is a big wonky looney.
Do tell...
He's an angry man!

But generous in many ways and often quite a treat.
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:13 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:I have a fantastic new thingy I'll call it "Vajrayana." It will have four initiations, deities to visualize, mantras and yoga methods according to a text that lays out the path clearly. I'll call it a "tantra". We will inhabit a magical land called The West Coast with snow mountains, lotus lakes and beautiful dakini like women everywhere. It will be so awesome!!! Who's a joiner?
I'll have whatever he's having, 'cuz it must be good!
I hope you didn't forget your tee ee ex tee... bee cause it is drugs my dealer...
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:15 pm

dzogchungpa wrote: Really? Where are all the dakini like women? :smile:
Close your computer.... and go... OUTSIDE!!!
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:36 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:Buddha had a word for happiness and it was piti. It's stops at the third jhana. Sukha is the relief from the pain of samsara. That's the difference. If you want to glom terms together because you think that's awesome then go ahead, but Buddha was precise to distinguish inner experiences especially the transient from the non-arising...
IIRC, Bodhi translates 'piti' as 'rapture' in his AN translation. Why don't you go check out his translation of the section on happiness I referred to and see what you think about it?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:38 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Really? Where are all the dakini like women? :smile:
Close your computer.... and go... OUTSIDE!!!
Well, dzogchungma is definitely beautiful and dakini like, but I wouldn't say beautiful dakini like women are everywhere on the West Coast. :smile:
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:00 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Really? Where are all the dakini like women? :smile:
Close your computer.... and go... OUTSIDE!!!
Well, dzogchungma is definitely beautiful and dakini like, but I wouldn't say beautiful dakini like women are everywhere on the West Coast. :smile:
You don't see dakinis everywhere? Soon you will.
Delete my account

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:01 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Buddha had a word for happiness and it was piti. It's stops at the third jhana. Sukha is the relief from the pain of samsara. That's the difference. If you want to glom terms together because you think that's awesome then go ahead, but Buddha was precise to distinguish inner experiences especially the transient from the non-arising...
IIRC, Bodhi translates 'piti' as 'rapture' in his AN translation. Why don't you go check out his translation of the section on happiness I referred to and see what you think about it?
He's malnourished. Samadhi translates as rapture.
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Bakmoon
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Bakmoon » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:38 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:Buddha had a word for happiness and it was piti. It's stops at the third jhana. Sukha is the relief from the pain of samsara. That's the difference. If you want to glom terms together because you think that's awesome then go ahead, but Buddha was precise to distinguish inner experiences especially the transient from the non-arising...
If Sukha is just being relaxed and at ease, then why is it that Sukha is abandoned when one enters the fourth jhana? Does that mean that in the fourth jhana the meditator is no longer relaxed and peaceful?

Furthermore when you look at how the term Sukha is used, it's fairly clear that Sukha is a pleasant feeling. For example, in the simile for the third jhana it describes the third jhana like this:
And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with
Sukha is also one of the three kinds of Vedana. If I see something beautiful and gain pleasure from that, it is called pleasant feeling, or Sukha Vedana. If the word Sukha isn't tied to some concept of pleasure, then why would the Buddha use this term to refer to pleasent feeling?

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maybay
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by maybay » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:07 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Buddha had a word for happiness and it was piti. It's stops at the third jhana. Sukha is the relief from the pain of samsara. That's the difference. If you want to glom terms together because you think that's awesome then go ahead, but Buddha was precise to distinguish inner experiences especially the transient from the non-arising...
If Sukha is just being relaxed and at ease, then why is it that Sukha is abandoned when one enters the fourth jhana? Does that mean that in the fourth jhana the meditator is no longer relaxed and peaceful?
One characteristic of the fourth jhana is indifference to happiness and suffering. There's also no being held back by satisfaction (priti).
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
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maybay
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by maybay » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:18 pm

Bakmoon wrote:If I see something beautiful and gain pleasure from that, it is called pleasant feeling, or Sukha Vedana. If the word Sukha isn't tied to some concept of pleasure, then why would the Buddha use this term to refer to pleasent feeling?
What do you mean by being tied to some concept of pleasure? That sounds like perception, as in the third skandha, distinct from feeling, the second skandha.

If something is agreeable then it is something you would want to appropriate as "I". Even perverts appropriate disagreeable feelings since they are the cause of agreeable perceptions.
People will know nothing and everything
Remember nothing and everything
Think nothing and everything
Do nothing and everything
- Machig Labdron

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:32 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Well, dzogchungma is definitely beautiful and dakini like, but I wouldn't say beautiful dakini like women are everywhere on the West Coast. :smile:
You don't see dakinis everywhere? Soon you will.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Bakmoon » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:35 am

maybay wrote:
Bakmoon wrote:If Sukha is just being relaxed and at ease, then why is it that Sukha is abandoned when one enters the fourth jhana? Does that mean that in the fourth jhana the meditator is no longer relaxed and peaceful?
One characteristic of the fourth jhana is indifference to happiness and suffering. There's also no being held back by satisfaction (priti).
Yes, equanimity is present in the fourth jhana, but the main point I was trying to make to Crazywisdom is that if Sukha were being at peace and ease rather than being a distinctly pleasant feeling, then that would mean that the fourth jhana has very strong Sukha rather than having no Sukha.
maybay wrote:What do you mean by being tied to some concept of pleasure? That sounds like perception, as in the third skandha, distinct from feeling, the second skandha.

If something is agreeable then it is something you would want to appropriate as "I".
I mean that the idea of Sukha at the very least is related to the idea of pleasure because if they were two different things it would be pointless to use the word Sukha to refer to pleasant feelings.
Crazywisdom wrote:He's malnourished. Samadhi translates as rapture.
Samadhi definately doesn't mean rapture. The word rapture refures a joyous and uplifting feeling, and as one progresses beyond the second jhana that is given up, but of course Samadhi becomes even stronger as one attains higher jhanas. Samadhi means for the mind to fixate on an object.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:39 am

Getting back to 'happiness', here are two books that might be relevant:
http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Guide-D ... 0316167258
http://www.amazon.com/Not-Happiness-So- ... 1611800307
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:31 pm

Bakmoon wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:Buddha had a word for happiness and it was piti. It's stops at the third jhana. Sukha is the relief from the pain of samsara. That's the difference. If you want to glom terms together because you think that's awesome then go ahead, but Buddha was precise to distinguish inner experiences especially the transient from the non-arising...
If Sukha is just being relaxed and at ease, then why is it that Sukha is abandoned when one enters the fourth jhana? Does that mean that in the fourth jhana the meditator is no longer relaxed and peaceful?

Furthermore when you look at how the term Sukha is used, it's fairly clear that Sukha is a pleasant feeling. For example, in the simile for the third jhana it describes the third jhana like this:
And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. Just as in a lotus pond, some of the lotuses, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates... this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with
Sukha is also one of the three kinds of Vedana. If I see something beautiful and gain pleasure from that, it is called pleasant feeling, or Sukha Vedana. If the word Sukha isn't tied to some concept of pleasure, then why would the Buddha use this term to refer to pleasent feeling?
buddha also uses sukh to describe nirvan, but not piti. I didn't deny sukh was a feeling. Its a special class. 4th jhan is connected with sati bhojanga
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Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:34 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Well, dzogchungma is definitely beautiful and dakini like, but I wouldn't say beautiful dakini like women are everywhere on the West Coast. :smile:
You don't see dakinis everywhere? Soon you will.
:woohoo: :woohoo: :woohoo:
Then they will lecture you everywhere you go.
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Bakmoon
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Bakmoon » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:06 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:buddha also uses sukh to describe nirvan, but not piti. I didn't deny sukh was a feeling. Its a special class. 4th jhan is connected with sati bhojanga
It's true that the Buddha described Nirvana with the word Sukkha, but in that particular context the word Sukha is being used in a totally different sense than it normally is. For example, in AN 9.34 which has the following exchange:
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant (sukhamidaṃ), friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt? (vedayitanti)"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
So it is clear that the word Sukha in its normal meaning means pleasant feeling. If the normal meaning of the word Sukkha didn't refer to pleasent feeling (i.e. Sukha Vedana) then why would the Ven. Udayin have objected?

Sure, I'll grant that the word Sukha doesn't mean pleasent feeling in the context of Nirvana, but it does mean pleasent feeling in pretty much every other context it's used in.

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Apr 30, 2015 5:58 pm

If you want to analogize nirvan somehow it is to this feeling; but it is transcendent of body experience; the yogi knows "this is release" and this is sukh; sukh because no longer does one have a single burden. There is a pleasant feeling from eating good food when hungry; this is the release from hunger as sukh. Then there is being release from prison or having a mountain of debt exonerated; or having been a slave, being set free; this is a sukh also, but its quality transcends all other worldly experiences so then you see into never having to samsara drag you along like a flood or an avalanche again; this is supreme sukh
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:02 pm

so the way to apply this is to take the sukh vedana and relax; naturally the sati bhojanga arise and into this process nirvan is met such indescribability is a sukh also so then devoid of words and phrases you are left with the remnants of what came before
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RobertoKhorviano
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by RobertoKhorviano » Sat Oct 31, 2015 2:38 am

Here's an interview with Reggie. Probably people with negative bias against him will use it to reinforce their vision of him and people with positive bias will do the same (not sharing my opinion as it is irrelevant). That said it's a fairly intimate and honest interview and a direct look into Reggie's mind. He adresses here lots of the issues that have been discussed here.

http://www.soundstrue.com/podcast/trans ... mefromhome

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