Mahamudra in the Modern World

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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Gyurme Kundrol » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:You seem to be saying that misery needs to be instilled in us before we can practice the Dharma. Is that correct?
No, I am saying it is already there. If you are not recognizing it, it is because you have not really understood what suffering is.
For those that already recognise the hopelessness of saṃsāra and are suffering, might a degree of positivity in the message be encouraging?
Yep, the positive message is the the third and fourth noble truths, that suffering can end and that there is a path to end it.

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 pm

dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:You seem to be saying that misery needs to be instilled in us before we can practice the Dharma. Is that correct?
No, I am saying it is already there. If you are not recognizing it, it is because you have not really understood what suffering is.
For those that already recognise the hopelessness of saṃsāra and are suffering, might a degree of positivity in the message be encouraging?
Sachen Kunga Nyingpo says:
  • If one carefully reflects on the absence of happiness wherever one is born in samsara’s three realms, whatever one does will become Dharma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:25 pm

Yep, the positive message is the the third and fourth noble truths, that suffering can end and that there is a path to end it.
:good:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Astus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:No, that is never the case, it is more like a stamp and its impression. A recorded empowerment can never be a stamp, it can only be an impression. In this case, an inert impression. A student, who receives an empowerment, is an animate living person upon whom an impression has been made, and when they have realized the meaning, they too can make impressions on others.

This is essentially why, for all who reading, the idea that one can receive an empowerment from a recording is a corrupt idea that will destroy lineages if people take it seriously.
How does the stamp meets the wax? Isn't it through the five outer senses?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 pm

Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, that is never the case, it is more like a stamp and its impression. A recorded empowerment can never be a stamp, it can only be an impression. In this case, an inert impression. A student, who receives an empowerment, is an animate living person upon whom an impression has been made, and when they have realized the meaning, they too can make impressions on others.

This is essentially why, for all who reading, the idea that one can receive an empowerment from a recording is a corrupt idea that will destroy lineages if people take it seriously.
How does the stamp meets the wax? Isn't it through the five outer senses?
Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:54 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
What is "Shambhala view"?

BTW, Ray has distanced himself from both the traditional Karma Kagyu as well as Trungpa's organization. That could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing. But in any case I don't think the Shambhala=R. Ray association is currently correct.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:01 pm

smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
What is "Shambhala view"?

BTW, Ray has distanced himself from both the traditional Karma Kagyu as well as Trungpa's organization. That could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing. But in any case I don't think the Shambhala=R. Ray association is currently correct.
As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Astus » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?
Then there is no difference between a live broadcast and a recording in terms of visual and auditory impressions. Maybe even mass empowerments are similar as well.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:11 pm

It's been a while since i've read any of the Shambhala stuff, but I don't remember it diverging from basic Buddhist teaching much, what I remember is basically Buddhism 101, with nomenclature and explanations that are paired down for westerners. I believe though there is also a Shambhala program that is not public beyond that, and always assumed it was basically Vajrayana.. can anyone confirm?

"Basic Goodness" is obviously a pseudonym for Buddha nature, and the use of it was/is a "secular" way of explaining the concept. You can find "secular" talks by HHDL that do something really similar, use secular language to communicate something which at heart, is really not a very "secular" concept.
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smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:12 pm

dzogchungpa wrote: As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.
"Basic goodness" can be read as a take on Buddha Nature. "Enlightened society" is a bit of an oxymoron, in that society is always the common/group/unaware/samsaric mind. I've always understood the term to mean that we (Westerners) are so crazy that we need to change our culture before we will be able to make progress in formal Dharma practice, but that's just my ill-informed impression.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:15 pm

smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.
"Basic goodness" can be read as a take on Buddha Nature. "Enlightened society" is a bit of an oxymoron, in that society is always the common/group/unaware/samsaric mind. I've always understood the term to mean that we (Westerners) are so crazy that we need to change our culture before we will be able to make progress in formal Dharma practice, but that's just my ill-informed impression.

Yeah I found that one odd, but then i've read lots of prayers about transforming the world into a pureland too..and that doesn't seem too different.
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:17 pm

Well, I have to run, but here's a quote from "Great Eastern Sun":
We should feel that it is wonderful to be in this world: How wonderful it is to see red and yellow, blue and green, purple and black All of these colors are provided to us. We feel hot and cold. We deserve these things; we have them. Basic goodness is what we have, what we are provided with, the natural situation that everybody has earned from their childhood up to now. Fundamentally speaking, it is not good in the ordinary sense of good, good, goody, good. Neither is it particularly bad. It is unconditional.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:29 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Well, I have to run, but here's a quote from "Great Eastern Sun":
We should feel that it is wonderful to be in this world: How wonderful it is to see red and yellow, blue and green, purple and black All of these colors are provided to us. We feel hot and cold. We deserve these things; we have them. Basic goodness is what we have, what we are provided with, the natural situation that everybody has earned from their childhood up to now. Fundamentally speaking, it is not good in the ordinary sense of good, good, goody, good. Neither is it particularly bad. It is unconditional.
This is not so different from the practice of viewing the world as a pureland or mandala....In fact, I always assumed this is the sort of idea he was going for when he said stuff like this, since if you measure statements like these they fit in (in some sense) with a Vajrayana view, but not so much with Mahayana or Hinayana views.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:44 am

Moved talk on online empowerments etc. to a new thread, if possible I think we should keep on the subject of Reggie Ray, and related.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19445
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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:50 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by WeiHan » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:18 pm

Probably everybody are different. I have always thought that many people believe that ending of this life is not the end of everything (i.e rebirth) and that situations be changed throught practise (i.e karma) are both positive messages.

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.
OH SNAP!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:09 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.
OH SNAP!
Image
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:52 pm

What Is Happiness?- Finding True Happiness | Coca-Cola
http://us.coca-cola.com/happiness/
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