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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 pm
by Gyurme Kundrol
dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:You seem to be saying that misery needs to be instilled in us before we can practice the Dharma. Is that correct?
No, I am saying it is already there. If you are not recognizing it, it is because you have not really understood what suffering is.
For those that already recognise the hopelessness of saṃsāra and are suffering, might a degree of positivity in the message be encouraging?
Yep, the positive message is the the third and fourth noble truths, that suffering can end and that there is a path to end it.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:20 pm
by Malcolm
dharmagoat wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:You seem to be saying that misery needs to be instilled in us before we can practice the Dharma. Is that correct?
No, I am saying it is already there. If you are not recognizing it, it is because you have not really understood what suffering is.
For those that already recognise the hopelessness of saṃsāra and are suffering, might a degree of positivity in the message be encouraging?
Sachen Kunga Nyingpo says:
  • If one carefully reflects on the absence of happiness wherever one is born in samsara’s three realms, whatever one does will become Dharma.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:25 pm
by Schrödinger’s Yidam
Yep, the positive message is the the third and fourth noble truths, that suffering can end and that there is a path to end it.
:good:

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:31 pm
by Astus
Malcolm wrote:No, that is never the case, it is more like a stamp and its impression. A recorded empowerment can never be a stamp, it can only be an impression. In this case, an inert impression. A student, who receives an empowerment, is an animate living person upon whom an impression has been made, and when they have realized the meaning, they too can make impressions on others.

This is essentially why, for all who reading, the idea that one can receive an empowerment from a recording is a corrupt idea that will destroy lineages if people take it seriously.
How does the stamp meets the wax? Isn't it through the five outer senses?

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:42 pm
by Malcolm
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:No, that is never the case, it is more like a stamp and its impression. A recorded empowerment can never be a stamp, it can only be an impression. In this case, an inert impression. A student, who receives an empowerment, is an animate living person upon whom an impression has been made, and when they have realized the meaning, they too can make impressions on others.

This is essentially why, for all who reading, the idea that one can receive an empowerment from a recording is a corrupt idea that will destroy lineages if people take it seriously.
How does the stamp meets the wax? Isn't it through the five outer senses?
Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:47 pm
by dzogchungpa
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 8:54 pm
by Schrödinger’s Yidam
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
What is "Shambhala view"?

BTW, Ray has distanced himself from both the traditional Karma Kagyu as well as Trungpa's organization. That could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing. But in any case I don't think the Shambhala=R. Ray association is currently correct.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:01 pm
by dzogchungpa
smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
What is "Shambhala view"?

BTW, Ray has distanced himself from both the traditional Karma Kagyu as well as Trungpa's organization. That could be a good thing, or it could be a bad thing. But in any case I don't think the Shambhala=R. Ray association is currently correct.
As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:07 pm
by Astus
Malcolm wrote:Of course, who ever said it was otherwise?
Then there is no difference between a live broadcast and a recording in terms of visual and auditory impressions. Maybe even mass empowerments are similar as well.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:11 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
It's been a while since i've read any of the Shambhala stuff, but I don't remember it diverging from basic Buddhist teaching much, what I remember is basically Buddhism 101, with nomenclature and explanations that are paired down for westerners. I believe though there is also a Shambhala program that is not public beyond that, and always assumed it was basically Vajrayana.. can anyone confirm?

"Basic Goodness" is obviously a pseudonym for Buddha nature, and the use of it was/is a "secular" way of explaining the concept. You can find "secular" talks by HHDL that do something really similar, use secular language to communicate something which at heart, is really not a very "secular" concept.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:12 pm
by Schrödinger’s Yidam
dzogchungpa wrote: As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.
"Basic goodness" can be read as a take on Buddha Nature. "Enlightened society" is a bit of an oxymoron, in that society is always the common/group/unaware/samsaric mind. I've always understood the term to mean that we (Westerners) are so crazy that we need to change our culture before we will be able to make progress in formal Dharma practice, but that's just my ill-informed impression.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:15 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: As I said, I am not an expert, but as Dilgo Khyentse was quoted in that radiofreeshambhala faq:
“Shambhala Training is a complete path to enlightenment–it has view, meditation, action.”
Examples of things to look into, if you are actually interested, would be the notions of "basic goodness" and "enlightened society".

As far as Ray is concerned, I believe I heard him say in an interview that for him and his teaching the view is Shambhala, not that he is currently associated with the organization of that name.
"Basic goodness" can be read as a take on Buddha Nature. "Enlightened society" is a bit of an oxymoron, in that society is always the common/group/unaware/samsaric mind. I've always understood the term to mean that we (Westerners) are so crazy that we need to change our culture before we will be able to make progress in formal Dharma practice, but that's just my ill-informed impression.

Yeah I found that one odd, but then i've read lots of prayers about transforming the world into a pureland too..and that doesn't seem too different.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:17 pm
by dzogchungpa
Well, I have to run, but here's a quote from "Great Eastern Sun":
We should feel that it is wonderful to be in this world: How wonderful it is to see red and yellow, blue and green, purple and black All of these colors are provided to us. We feel hot and cold. We deserve these things; we have them. Basic goodness is what we have, what we are provided with, the natural situation that everybody has earned from their childhood up to now. Fundamentally speaking, it is not good in the ordinary sense of good, good, goody, good. Neither is it particularly bad. It is unconditional.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 9:29 pm
by Johnny Dangerous
dzogchungpa wrote:Well, I have to run, but here's a quote from "Great Eastern Sun":
We should feel that it is wonderful to be in this world: How wonderful it is to see red and yellow, blue and green, purple and black All of these colors are provided to us. We feel hot and cold. We deserve these things; we have them. Basic goodness is what we have, what we are provided with, the natural situation that everybody has earned from their childhood up to now. Fundamentally speaking, it is not good in the ordinary sense of good, good, goody, good. Neither is it particularly bad. It is unconditional.
This is not so different from the practice of viewing the world as a pureland or mandala....In fact, I always assumed this is the sort of idea he was going for when he said stuff like this, since if you measure statements like these they fit in (in some sense) with a Vajrayana view, but not so much with Mahayana or Hinayana views.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:44 am
by Johnny Dangerous
Moved talk on online empowerments etc. to a new thread, if possible I think we should keep on the subject of Reggie Ray, and related.

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=19445

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 12:50 pm
by Malcolm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:18 pm
by WeiHan
Probably everybody are different. I have always thought that many people believe that ending of this life is not the end of everything (i.e rebirth) and that situations be changed throught practise (i.e karma) are both positive messages.

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:37 pm
by dzogchungpa
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Dharma is about how things are, and how things are is sarvadukkham.
Well, I'm not an expert on either Shambhala or Ray, but from what I understand this is not the Shambhala view, and if I am not mistaken, for Ray the Shambhala view is fundamental.
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.
OH SNAP!

Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:09 pm
by Malcolm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
A promise of happiness underlies all successful marketing.
OH SNAP!
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 3:52 pm
by Natan
What Is Happiness?- Finding True Happiness | Coca-Cola
http://us.coca-cola.com/happiness/
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