Mahamudra in the Modern World

Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:41 pm

DesertDweller wrote:Take for instance the issue of recorded empowerments, which I think were deemed acceptable by Garchen Rinpoche.
Um no...this was an example of enthusiastic over reach on the part of some of his students in one center. Many "innovations" happen this way.

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:04 pm

dharmagoat wrote: Oops, it seems that I used this term incorrectly in an earlier post. It would have been better to have said "It is religious conservatism that I avoid, not tradition."
I think you mean uptight and intolerant dogmatism.

(Guilty as charged.)
In my understanding, a "valid" innovation would be one which grew organically from within the tradition, based on purely traditional principles, in response to a present need.
"Dharma" is communication from an enlightened mind. As such any innovations must come from an enlightened master, not the convenience of the unenlightened. That would be a corruption of Dharma.

(See the admission of guilt above.)
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

DesertDweller
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by DesertDweller » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:19 pm

As such any innovations must come from an enlightened master, not the convenience of the unenlightened. That would be a corruption of Dharma.
Well, basically that's what I was saying, in a different way :tongue:

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dharmagoat
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:20 pm

smcj wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:Oops, it seems that I used this term incorrectly in an earlier post. It would have been better to have said "It is religious conservatism that I avoid, not tradition."
I think you mean uptight and intolerant dogmatism.
That too, but it wouldn't go down so well.

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dharmagoat
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dharmagoat » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:27 pm

smcj wrote:"Dharma" is communication from an enlightened mind. As such any innovations must come from an enlightened master, not the convenience of the unenlightened. That would be a corruption of Dharma.
It could only be a corruption of Dharma if it was passed on in the guise of Dharma. Otherwise the worst it could be is non-Dharma.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:59 pm

smcj wrote:
I'm not an expert, but I don't think the Shambhala stuff is particularly traditional.
My understanding is that Shambhala is supposed to ready people for traditional practice. Those practices he did not alter.

But I don't know that for a fact.
Have a look at the section "Buddhism and Shambhala - Affirming the independence of the Shambhala teachings" in Midal's "Chogyam Trungpa: His Life and Vision".

:focus:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:04 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:
I'm not an expert, but I don't think the Shambhala stuff is particularly traditional.
My understanding is that Shambhala is supposed to ready people for traditional practice. Those practices he did not alter.

But I don't know that for a fact.
Have a look at the section "Buddhism and Shambhala - Affirming the independence of the Shambhala teachings" in Midal's "Chogyam Trungpa: His Life and Vision".
In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Apr 25, 2015 8:08 pm

smcj wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Have a look at the section "Buddhism and Shambhala - Affirming the independence of the Shambhala teachings" in Midal's "Chogyam Trungpa: His Life and Vision".
In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
You can read it here: https://books.google.com/books?id=ClNei ... ambhala%22
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

BuddhaFollower
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by BuddhaFollower » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:The second thing is that one should have faith that one's root guru is actually a Buddha, or at least one should try to develop that sincere conviction over time. If one does not have this conviction, it is very difficult to make progress in Vajrayāna practice; but if one has this conviction, it becomes very easy.

Since there is no way to modernize this essential feature of Vajrayāna, Vajrayāna will always resist modernization.

For example, there is a well known story about how Naropa displayed a mandala in the sky to Marpa, and asked Marpa to whom he would prostrate, the guru or the mandala, Marpa, thinking that he saw his guru everyday, but never saw such miraculously manifested mandalas, chose to prostrate to the mandala...big mistake that cost Marpa his family lineage...
:cheers:

I view ChNN as the Dharmakaya.

He pervades everything, including the computer I am typing on.

All Buddhas are merely a manifestation of him.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

BuddhaFollower
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by BuddhaFollower » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:16 pm

This thread and others inspired me to start a poll:

http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=19410
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:01 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
smcj wrote:In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
You can read it here: https://books.google.com/books?id=ClNei ... ambhala%22
It didn't answer my question. That's ok, I'm not really all that interested anyway. It does not effect my practice. But I'm still of the impression that once all was said and done (and boy was there ever a lot both said and done), Trungpa's students ended up doing Vajrayana.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:48 pm

smcj wrote: In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
The Sakyong has integrated the Shambhala teachings into the Buddhist path over all, rebranding their lineage as Shambhala Buddhism.

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:56 pm

Malcolm wrote: The Sakyong has integrated the Shambhala teachings into the Buddhist path over all, rebranding their lineage as Shambhala Buddhism.
Does it still end up at Vajrayana?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:27 pm

smcj wrote:
Malcolm wrote: The Sakyong has integrated the Shambhala teachings into the Buddhist path over all, rebranding their lineage as Shambhala Buddhism.
Does it still end up at Vajrayana?
Yes, of course, but rather than Shambhala teaching being a separate path, they are now integrated. So there is a Shambhala ngondro, etc., all culminating in Gesar practice, the so called Werma sadhana, along with other practices authored/revealed by CTR

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: Does it still end up at Vajrayana?
Yes, of course, but rather than Shambhala teaching being a separate path, they are now integrated. So there is a Shambhala ngondro, etc., all culminating in Gesar practice, the so called Werma sadhana, along with other practices authored/revealed by CTR
OK, thanks.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
The Sakyong has integrated the Shambhala teachings into the Buddhist path over all, rebranding their lineage as Shambhala Buddhism.
Yes, and not without controversy. See, for example, http://radiofreeshambhala.org/faq/faq-shambhala/,
and this interview http://www.chronicleproject.com/chronic ... 11_18.html with Mark Szpakowski,
the founder of radiofreeshambhala.org, which BTW has a lot of content of interest to Trungpaphiles.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Sherlock
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Sherlock » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:51 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
smcj wrote: In that presentation what, if anything, comes after Shambhala? Or is it presented as a path to full enlightenment?
The Sakyong has integrated the Shambhala teachings into the Buddhist path over all, rebranding their lineage as Shambhala Buddhism.
Yes, and not without controversy. See, for example, http://radiofreeshambhala.org/faq/faq-shambhala/,
and this interview http://www.chronicleproject.com/chronic ... 11_18.html with Mark Szpakowski,
the founder of radiofreeshambhala.org, which BTW has a lot of content of interest to Trungpaphiles.
They keep reporting second-hand sources there.

Much like Muslim hadiths :stirthepot: .

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Apr 26, 2015 3:58 pm

My idea to modernize is to take a traditional lineage like Guhyagarbha and do everything precisely as the tantra explains but in English. That we practice a lot in English except mantras obviously and slowly the chant patterns and melodies will emerge. This will be supremely inspiring and effective bc so many people will instantly be able to understand. I feel strongly that the biggest obstacle to dharma in the West is the failure of foreign teachers to develop their English skills and forcing their groups to parrot meaningless sounds whist requiring people to deprecate themselves so obsequiously that someone loses all sense and becomes a blind faith master who chirps and blurts devotional chimes bowing and scraping while developing extremely pent up problems.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.

smcj
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by smcj » Sun Apr 26, 2015 5:22 pm

...and not without controversy.
I am amazed at how strong the impulse is to get the benefits of Buddhism without making any concessions to it. All I can say to that is, good luck!
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)

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Gyurme Kundrol
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Gyurme Kundrol » Sun Apr 26, 2015 8:10 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:My idea to modernize is to take a traditional lineage like Guhyagarbha and do everything precisely as the tantra explains but in English. That we practice a lot in English except mantras obviously and slowly the chant patterns and melodies will emerge. This will be supremely inspiring and effective bc so many people will instantly be able to understand. I feel strongly that the biggest obstacle to dharma in the West is the failure of foreign teachers to develop their English skills and forcing their groups to parrot meaningless sounds whist requiring people to deprecate themselves so obsequiously that someone loses all sense and becomes a blind faith master who chirps and blurts devotional chimes bowing and scraping while developing extremely pent up problems.
The biggest obstacle is just the students themselves.

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