Mahamudra in the Modern World

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Anders
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Anders »

Malcolm wrote:
DesertDweller wrote:Take for instance the issue of recorded empowerments, which I think were deemed acceptable by Garchen Rinpoche.
Um no...this was an example of enthusiastic over reach on the part of some of his students in one center. Many "innovations" happen this way.
I don't pay close attention, but last time i checked the quotes seemed to indicate the contrary.

How was it established it was students overreaching?
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As your companion in practice"

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm »

Anders wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
DesertDweller wrote:Take for instance the issue of recorded empowerments, which I think were deemed acceptable by Garchen Rinpoche.
Um no...this was an example of enthusiastic over reach on the part of some of his students in one center. Many "innovations" happen this way.
I don't pay close attention, but last time i checked the quotes seemed to indicate the contrary.

How was it established it was students overreaching?
Because, in the end, when the Khenpo at the center where those students were making that assertion was pressed on the issue, he would not confirm that this in fact was Garchen Rinpoche's point of view.

Anyway, this is a stupid conversation — you cannot receive empowerments from a recording of an empowerment, period. End of story. Just like you cannot receive monks vows from a recording, and so on. People who think they have received an empowerment from a recording are just deluding themselves and received nothing whatsoever. Even if they recite mantras and practices they think they have received from a recording there will be no benefit whatsoever, in fact the opposite will be the case.

If you want to receive a vow, any vow, you have to do it in the proper way, and receiving them from a recording cannot be construed as proper at all.
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by DesertDweller »

Yes, we already know that is your view. But the question, which you haven't really answered, is how do you know that the Rinpoche doesn't think otherwise? It doesn't seem that you really do know. Can anyone clarify?
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm »

DesertDweller wrote:Yes, we already know that is your view. But the question, which you haven't really answered, is how do you know that the Rinpoche doesn't think otherwise? It doesn't seem that you really do know. Can anyone clarify?
Garchen Rinpoche is a very traditional lama, who would never advocate that one can actually received an empowerment from a chunk of inanimate metal and plastic that makes noise and projects an image.

He himself never said that this was a possibility.

Anyway, it cannot be done. It does not depend on this or that lamas opinion.
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

I followed that thread closely, and it seemed to me there was never a definitive answer given in either direction.

Personally I ended up erring on the side of "no" because it's the safe answer.

Also one thing he DID say IIRC is that doing any online empowerment simply because you don't want to go to the temple, and experience all that entails..is bad motivation, and wouldn't "work".

Honestly I think that probably describes a good number of people who are looking for internet Dharma teaching, while avoiding in-person teaching.. but that's just me.
"...if you think about how many hours, months and years of your life you've spent looking at things, being fascinated by things that have now passed away, then how wonderful to spend even five minutes looking into the nature of your own mind."

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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Crazywisdom »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:My idea to modernize is to take a traditional lineage like Guhyagarbha and do everything precisely as the tantra explains but in English. That we practice a lot in English except mantras obviously and slowly the chant patterns and melodies will emerge. This will be supremely inspiring and effective bc so many people will instantly be able to understand. I feel strongly that the biggest obstacle to dharma in the West is the failure of foreign teachers to develop their English skills and forcing their groups to parrot meaningless sounds whist requiring people to deprecate themselves so obsequiously that someone loses all sense and becomes a blind faith master who chirps and blurts devotional chimes bowing and scraping while developing extremely pent up problems.
The biggest obstacle is just the students themselves.
Every phenomena is interdependent. Students suck because teachers such and vice versa. Let's stick to the topic. Point to one single instance where an Indian teacher demanded a Tibetan student to recite anything besides a mantra in an Indian language. Then you will understand the malpractices being perpetrated on our lands.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
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dharmagoat
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dharmagoat »

Gyurme Kundrol wrote:
Crazywisdom wrote:I feel strongly that the biggest obstacle to dharma in the West is the failure of foreign teachers to develop their English skills and forcing their groups to parrot meaningless sounds whist requiring people to deprecate themselves so obsequiously that someone loses all sense and becomes a blind faith master who chirps and blurts devotional chimes bowing and scraping while developing extremely pent up problems.
The biggest obstacle is just the students themselves.
That may be true, but a teacher has the responsibility to help the student work through their problems, not allow them to worsen.

If I may speak for myself here, my seven years of refuge within conventional Vajrayāna really screwed me up.
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Dan74 »

Malcolm wrote:
Anyway, this is a stupid conversation — you cannot receive empowerments from a recording of an empowerment, period. End of story. Just like you cannot receive monks vows from a recording, and so on. People who think they have received an empowerment from a recording are just deluding themselves and received nothing whatsoever. Even if they recite mantras and practices they think they have received from a recording there will be no benefit whatsoever, in fact the opposite will be the case.

If you want to receive a vow, any vow, you have to do it in the proper way, and receiving them from a recording cannot be construed as proper at all.
Malcolm, could you elucidate why this is so? Or point me to a resource??

From my non-Vajrayana perspective I can easily see how in some instance face-to-faces interaction with a teacher who knows your heart is indispensable, but a lot of other instruction can be received in various formats. What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?

_/|\_
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa »

dharmagoat wrote:If I may speak for myself here, my seven years of refuge within conventional Vajrayāna really screwed me up.
How so?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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bryandavis
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by bryandavis »

What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?
Im sure Loppon Malcom can elucidate much more clear but, the teacher (in theory) would be in a certain space while giving the empowerment; so during the 4th empowerment for example, the teacher would actually be in a state of non dual awareness. There is a real time transference or potential.

A recording is devoid of sentience,of a mind, of wisdom.

B
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dharmagoat »

dzogchungpa wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:If I may speak for myself here, my seven years of refuge within conventional Vajrayāna really screwed me up.
How so?
It brought about a crisis of faith that I am only now, seventeen years since going for refuge, beginning to resolve.

The first signs were a developing aversion to practice which began from the moment I took refuge and has continued to this day. I have lost confidence, not just in the effectiveness of teachers and certain aspects of the Dharma, but also in my own ability to put Dharma into practice. Years before I went for refuge I had decided to dedicate my life to studying and practicing the Dharma, but in the last ten years without support or a sense of direction, all my endeavours to practice have been hollow. My life feels wasted.

However, now there is a new hope on the horizon...
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa »

dharmagoat wrote:However, now there is a new hope on the horizon...
How so?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa »

Dan74 wrote:What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?
I think it has to do with the zapping part.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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dharmagoat
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dharmagoat »

dzogchungpa wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:However, now there is a new hope on the horizon...
How so?
A 'ray' of hope...
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa »

dharmagoat wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
dharmagoat wrote:However, now there is a new hope on the horizon...
How so?
A 'ray' of hope...
I understand. ;)
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Astus »

bryandavis wrote:
What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?
Im sure Loppon Malcom can elucidate much more clear but, the teacher (in theory) would be in a certain space while giving the empowerment; so during the 4th empowerment for example, the teacher would actually be in a state of non dual awareness. There is a real time transference or potential.

A recording is devoid of sentience,of a mind, of wisdom.
That assumes a type of mental connection that is bound by time (and perhaps space). First, such a direct connection of minds is a violation of the teachings on mind-streams and karma. Second, non-dual awareness is supposed to be beyond time and space.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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bryandavis
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by bryandavis »

That assumes a type of mental connection that is bound by time (and perhaps space). First, such a direct connection of minds is a violation of the teachings on mind-streams and karma. Second, non-dual awareness is supposed to be beyond time and space.
I for one am not beyond time and space, yet. I do not assume some one like Garchen Rinpoche or ChNNR or other realized ones are bound by time and space. Hence the empowerment is trying to lead those of us that are not yet realized into a realized state. When one is not realized there certainly is some restriction in how things function.

:stirthepot:

At least it seems so to my conditioned mind.
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by WeiHan »

Astus wrote:
bryandavis wrote:
What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?
Im sure Loppon Malcom can elucidate much more clear but, the teacher (in theory) would be in a certain space while giving the empowerment; so during the 4th empowerment for example, the teacher would actually be in a state of non dual awareness. There is a real time transference or potential.

A recording is devoid of sentience,of a mind, of wisdom.
That assumes a type of mental connection that is bound by time (and perhaps space). First, such a direct connection of minds is a violation of the teachings on mind-streams and karma. Second, non-dual awareness is supposed to be beyond time and space.
What assumes a type of mental connection that is bound by time?
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by Malcolm »

Dan74 wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Anyway, this is a stupid conversation — you cannot receive empowerments from a recording of an empowerment, period. End of story. Just like you cannot receive monks vows from a recording, and so on. People who think they have received an empowerment from a recording are just deluding themselves and received nothing whatsoever. Even if they recite mantras and practices they think they have received from a recording there will be no benefit whatsoever, in fact the opposite will be the case.

If you want to receive a vow, any vow, you have to do it in the proper way, and receiving them from a recording cannot be construed as proper at all.
Malcolm, could you elucidate why this is so? Or point me to a resource??

From my non-Vajrayana perspective I can easily see how in some instance face-to-faces interaction with a teacher who knows your heart is indispensable, but a lot of other instruction can be received in various formats. What mechanism in empowerments makes it work when it is live and fail when it isn't?

_/|\_
dan
There are a number of levels at work here, but the most fundamental is that when you receive an empowerment, you are in fact receiving a number of vows, refuge vows, bodhisattva vows as well as vows of secret mantra. It is not simply "instruction."
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Re: Mahamudra in the Modern World

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:There are a number of levels at work here, but the most fundamental is that when you receive an empowerment, you are in fact receiving a number of vows, refuge vows, bodhisattva vows as well as vows of secret mantra. It is not simply "instruction."
This is interesting. I don't know about secret mantra vows, but can't you take refuge and bodhisattva vows by yourself?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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