Loch Kelly

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Vasana
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Vasana » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:25 am

Mahamudra and Dzogchen instructions both speak of liberation arising from the stabilisation of a definite recognition of mind essence. There would be no mention of stabilization in Mahamudra and Dzogchen if recognition was uninterrupted.

There's really no controversy in what Krodha is saying nor do such discussions necessitate the disclosure of personal experience when the claims are backed up by existent instructions from authoritative sources
"If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings to the same degree as you would the buddhas. Do you do that?" ~ Shri Singha

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florin
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby florin » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:35 pm

fckw wrote: Furthermore, it's quite well known that some mahasiddhas charged their students outrageous amounts of money for transmission of a certain teaching cycle, yet others again gave teachings to their students for free.


On a related point, Longchenpa , with regards to ati yoga teachings, advises that a qualified teacher should demand "I want this or that possession" with the view to test students worldly attachments to possessions and to examine their character .These students, if they are not suitable recipients, will quickly lose faith since they are too fond of their possessions.

With respect to suitable recipients, according to one tantra , the ones that have powerful limbs, rounded teeth, bloodshot eyes and hair curling clockwise should be instructed in great perfection
Maybe gurus should be advised to make visits to their local gyms ! :D
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Grigoris
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 12:54 pm

Vasana wrote:...the claims are backed up by existent instructions from authoritative sources
The claim that a sweet taste is inherently sweet is backed by ... ???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Vasana
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Vasana » Mon Aug 22, 2016 2:42 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Vasana wrote:...the claims are backed up by existent instructions from authoritative sources
The claim that a sweet taste is inherently sweet is backed by ... ???


The 'taste' remains an idea until it is experienced. Just as the smell of orange juice is just an possibility until it occurs in your direct experience. Your experience of smelling orange juice is an idea and a memory when you begin to describe it but you know it actually happened regardless of whether you speak from that experience. An Idea is hypothetical; As it is said to be. An experience is it's actual occurrence within one's field of wisdom; as it is.

Not all experiences necessitate ideas/concepts for their validation but will naturally require the usage of ideas when it comes to communicating how to go about having that experience.

One of the intentions of these rhetorical devices is to intentionally point to the limitations of the nouns and descriptions being used and that one must unmistakably have the experience for oneself beyond any doubts.

Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:Liberation vs. awakening is not some sort of "idea"... and certainly not a notion I have fabricated.
If you are not talking from experience, then you are talking about ideas. Actually, even if you are talking from experience you are talking about ideas.


Isn't the entire Buddha-dharma just a set of clever ideas to help us overcome our not so clever ideas until we go beyond the need for ideas all together?

Was that your point?
"If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings to the same degree as you would the buddhas. Do you do that?" ~ Shri Singha

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Grigoris
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 3:35 pm

Vasana wrote:The 'taste' remains an idea until it is experienced.
And then it becomes an idea immediately after the experience.
Was that your point?
My point is that arguing over who is awakened or not, qualified or not, capable or not, etc... is a complete waste of time.

Consider this fact: Some people, when confronted with the facts around Loch, wrote him off, others did not form any opinion on the man, others thought he sounds okay (formed a positive opinion) and others (who already know him) even joined the forum to extol his virtues. So what was ultimately achieved? Nothing at all!

Until we are enlightened, we are all deluded.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby krodha » Mon Aug 22, 2016 4:31 pm

PierreDeSuis wrote:Well then in your view what is it that prevents liberation after awakening?

Afflictive karmic traces have not been fully exhausted, and ignorance has not been fully uprooted.

Essentially the twin obscurations (afflictive and cognitive) remain in tact.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Vasana » Mon Aug 22, 2016 5:53 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Vasana wrote:The 'taste' remains an idea until it is experienced.
And then it becomes an idea immediately after the experience.
Was that your point?
My point is that arguing over who is awakened or not, qualified or not, capable or not, etc... is a complete waste of time.

Consider this fact: Some people, when confronted with the facts around Loch, wrote him off, others did not form any opinion on the man, others thought he sounds okay (formed a positive opinion) and others (who already know him) even joined the forum to extol his virtues. So what was ultimately achieved? Nothing at all!

Until we are enlightened, we are all deluded.


It's not at all a waste of time to examine the qualities and credentials of the teacher[s] you aim to study with.
I'm pretty sure that's what is actively encouraged.

What was achieved? We now have more evidence and clarity on the matter at hand which is a good thing. Loch has permissions to teach vipassana and shamatha. This is a positive thing. So called 'sutra mahamudra' however wasn't mentioned in the letter of permission but that doesn't mean what Loch has to offer won't be helpful in that regard, it just means he's not authorized to attach Mahamudra as something he can offer.
"If you think that buddhas and sentient beings are indivisible, you should honor and serve sentient beings to the same degree as you would the buddhas. Do you do that?" ~ Shri Singha

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Grigoris
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Grigoris » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:03 pm

Nobody here was aiming to study with him, in which case it was all just gossip.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby dzogchungpa » Mon Aug 22, 2016 7:06 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:Nobody here was aiming to study with him, in which case it was all just gossip.

Your point being?

:smile:
The whole purpose of Buddhism is to have fun, isn't it? - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

The secret of having fun is nongrasping. - Anam Thubten

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Greg » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:21 pm

JAC72 wrote:Hello all,

I am a colleague of Loch Kelly’s and wanted to clear up some of the confusions here:

1. I have helped coordinate events for Loch and other teachers. Some of the information about fees is related to communicating with hosts about how many students they think will attend. Most lay teachers like Loch want to accept invitations but want to know that there will be a decent number of students in order to leave home and make a teaching trip from the US to Europe. Loch did not want to charge a very small group of student higher fees to pay for the trip. Therefore, Loch suggests to hosts that he would like do a a 2 1/2 day retreat with around 55 people attending at around $150 per student. Taking into account scholarships given to students that is where the $7700 figure came from. It does sound strange when it is presented out of context. This is a pretty typical way to talk about whether the host can get enough people to attend for a teacher to accept an invitation to spend 5 days including travel. You can easily look at the fees on Loch’s website which are reasonable and similar to other dharma teachers.


As if the only way to ensure that the event is well organized and attended is to demand a $7700 fee for five days of work and travel. If that was his concern he could have asked that the money be put into escrow for the charity of his choice.


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