Loch Kelly

Simon E.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Simon E. » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:53 am

Kim wrote:What the *hell* is going on here... Someone shouts from the bushes a oneliner saying about a "misunderstanding" that Loch Kelly isn't an authorised mahamudra teacher and doesn't proof this claim in any way. And already Loch Kelly is thought of as big of a hoax as Jackson Peterson. Hello..?

Philji. Provide evidence of your claims of Kelly not being authorised by Mingyur. Otherwise you are committing a serious action of spreading misinformation that will have effect on both yourself, Loch Kelly and many others. I hope you can see that.


What exactly is this 'serious effect'? That sounds like the kind of primitive tactic that has kept thousands in thrall to pseudo 'gurus'.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Stewart » Thu Aug 11, 2016 11:25 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kim wrote:
philji wrote:I am not too comfortable with his comments.. "I do feel that I get most everything they are pointing to and so I trying to convey but I try to update them where the practices at times seem archaic and too formal and miss the how-to pieces which I try to fill in in different ways."
As for fees well????!!!!


I'd recommend anyone to check out how he teaches mahamudra practices.

But for sure, there is a business interest there. He charges 7700 USD per weekend, plus flights, hotels and meals. H e said it's perfectly fine with organisers in the US. He failed to understand that in remote European countries like the one where I live, he is practically unknown so taking a financial responsibility like that wasn't something I wanted to take. In regards to his fee, there was no mention of charity projects etc.


That is f$&king outrageous.

He also mentioned his teacher, Mingyur, charges more than him. I don't know what to make of that.


I highly doubt that this is the case.



We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.

Before anyone asks...I'm not wasting the time I get with MR asking about some guy who claims he's authorised by Rinpoche to teach...the very fact he makes these claims and charges fees like that...and that he's now removing MRs name from his website, speaks volumes.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Thu Aug 11, 2016 1:47 pm

Kim wrote:What the *hell* is going on here... Someone shouts from the bushes a oneliner saying about a "misunderstanding" that Loch Kelly isn't an authorised mahamudra teacher and doesn't proof this claim in any way. And already Loch Kelly is thought of as big of a hoax as Jackson Peterson. Hello..?.


Let's put it this way, Kim. If someone asked me if they should study with him, I would ascertain if they were truly interested in Dharma or preferred new age workshops before issuing my recommendation. But that's just me.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kim » Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:43 pm

That's fine Malcolm.

I have emailed Tergar's Tim Olmsted to inquire about this,whether or not Loch Kelly has been authorised or not. Philji PM'd me and clarified this based on what he knows.

Be it one way or the other, on the basis of my familiarisation, I certainly would not be as hasty as Malcolm calling Loch Kelly "new age". He's been studying with these rinpoche's for a few decades. A person like that doesn't become new age overnight simply because the lama's permission isn't there after all. I've heard only good things about how Loch teaches and how people benefit of it.

Even if it turns out that he misunderstood something and did not receive Mingyur's permission, it doesn't make him a hoax. Perhaps he simply misunderstood, got something wrong. I doubt, though can't be sure, that he purposefully started to mislead people and claimed authenticity as a mahamudra teacher while Mingyur was on retreat. Even if he is, well, keen on money it doesn't make him a liar and a false guru. After all, he has studied with Mingyur, Tsoknyi and Tulku Urgyen for a long time. I still consider him very worth checking out, with or without Mingyur's authorisation. I still think his interviews and materials are very beneficial to any student of meditation. This is something that can't be said of many lamas out there who have formal credentials bigger than a house.
”I don't think we need even a scrap of Tibetan culture, including vajrayana buddhism, in order to recognise the nature of mind. If somebody walks in of the street here who never heard of Tibet or Tibetan buddhism and has a natural antipathy to anything other than American culture, is given the essence of dzogchen, there's no reason why that person should not attain immediately the same state that we have reached, having gone through that whole circuit of oriental culture and Tibetan buddhism.” - Keith Dowman

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kim » Thu Aug 11, 2016 5:19 pm

Direct quote:

Kim,

[...]


Mod-note: Quote removed on request by Kim.
Last edited by Ayu on Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed quote on request.
”I don't think we need even a scrap of Tibetan culture, including vajrayana buddhism, in order to recognise the nature of mind. If somebody walks in of the street here who never heard of Tibet or Tibetan buddhism and has a natural antipathy to anything other than American culture, is given the essence of dzogchen, there's no reason why that person should not attain immediately the same state that we have reached, having gone through that whole circuit of oriental culture and Tibetan buddhism.” - Keith Dowman

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Grigoris » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:21 pm

Stewart wrote:We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that $7700 is very reasonable?
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Ayu » Thu Aug 11, 2016 7:47 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
Stewart wrote:We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that $7700 is very reasonable?

No, he said Mingur Rinpoche doesn't charge vast sums but a more reasonable amount.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Grigoris » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:06 pm

Ayu wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
Stewart wrote:We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that $7700 is very reasonable?

No, he said Mingur Rinpoche doesn't charge vast sums but a more reasonable amount.
Aaaaahhh... okay! That's good to hear.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby philji » Thu Aug 11, 2016 8:53 pm

I am glad Km has managed to get clarification from Tergar about this, as he knows I too have had this clarified from Tergar.
How and why the " misunderstanding" took place who knows, it may have been innocent.
I prefer to go to the source and when we are lucky to have Mingyur and his brothers with us..make the most of them..they are priceless gems.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kim » Thu Aug 11, 2016 9:27 pm

Stewart wrote:a
We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.


How many people are there? How much do they pay each? Add it up... It might be perfectly reasonable to you but if there many people like 50-100-200 persons, the money keeps adding up. And from this point of view it could be right what Loch said of Mingyur's fee being higher than his.

I'm saying nothing about Mingyur, his lineage or his teachings which I think are wonderful. Only pointing to finances.

I don't know how often dharma finances are talked about but I started to feel a necessity to talk about the sums specifically once I heard of fees like these which to me are outrageous.
”I don't think we need even a scrap of Tibetan culture, including vajrayana buddhism, in order to recognise the nature of mind. If somebody walks in of the street here who never heard of Tibet or Tibetan buddhism and has a natural antipathy to anything other than American culture, is given the essence of dzogchen, there's no reason why that person should not attain immediately the same state that we have reached, having gone through that whole circuit of oriental culture and Tibetan buddhism.” - Keith Dowman

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Stewart » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:22 am

Kim wrote:
Stewart wrote:a
We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.


How many people are there? How much do they pay each? Add it up... It might be perfectly reasonable to you but if there many people like 50-100-200 persons, the money keeps adding up. And from this point of view it could be right what Loch said of Mingyur's fee being higher than his.

I'm saying nothing about Mingyur, his lineage or his teachings which I think are wonderful. Only pointing to finances.

I don't know how often dharma finances are talked about but I started to feel a necessity to talk about the sums specifically once I heard of fees like these which to me are outrageous.


So by that logic, Mingyur Rinpoche charges higher fees because more people turn up to his retreats?!

I know for a fact MR does not charge a 'fixed fee'...he turns up to teach at centres and an offering is made to him at the end....the same with any authentic teacher. He'll teach to 20 people or 300....there's no problem....I've been his student for 14 years, amd spent periods travelling and staying with him....he's the real deal....it's definitely not about money. He lives very simply.

Loch Kelly, whoever he is, has no right to make such claims about himself or MR.

PS. Greg, yeah I worded it badly....the fees here are very reasonable...sorry for the confusion.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Kim » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:07 am

Stewart wrote:
Kim wrote:
Stewart wrote:a
We'll I can tell you, I'm in Vajradhara Ling in France with Mingyur Rinpoche now...and it is very reasonable...course fees and accommodation.


How many people are there? How much do they pay each? Add it up... It might be perfectly reasonable to you but if there many people like 50-100-200 persons, the money keeps adding up. And from this point of view it could be right what Loch said of Mingyur's fee being higher than his.

I'm saying nothing about Mingyur, his lineage or his teachings which I think are wonderful. Only pointing to finances.

I don't know how often dharma finances are talked about but I started to feel a necessity to talk about the sums specifically once I heard of fees like these which to me are outrageous.


So by that logic, Mingyur Rinpoche charges higher fees because more people turn up to his retreats?!

I know for a fact MR does not charge a 'fixed fee'...he turns up to teach at centres and an offering is made to him at the end....the same with any authentic teacher. He'll teach to 20 people or 300....there's no problem....I've been his student for 14 years, amd spent periods travelling and staying with him....he's the real deal....it's definitely not about money. He lives very simply.

Loch Kelly, whoever he is, has no right to make such claims about himself or MR.


Well, in that case it is how it should be. Good :thumbsup:
”I don't think we need even a scrap of Tibetan culture, including vajrayana buddhism, in order to recognise the nature of mind. If somebody walks in of the street here who never heard of Tibet or Tibetan buddhism and has a natural antipathy to anything other than American culture, is given the essence of dzogchen, there's no reason why that person should not attain immediately the same state that we have reached, having gone through that whole circuit of oriental culture and Tibetan buddhism.” - Keith Dowman

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Knotty Veneer » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:53 am

Kim wrote:Direct quote:

Kim,

[Mod-note: edited on Kim's request.]
Timothy Olmsted
Senior Instructor
Tergar International


I find it hard to believe that someone who has been around the Dharma for decades (as reported here) would make a mistake about transmission from a teacher. As regards sutra mahamudra, his site biog makes no claim that he has done anything like the traditional training (such as 3-year retreat) that would generally be a requisite to teach something like that - at least in the Kagyu tradition.

None of the above implies that what Kelly teaches is hooey necessarily. It does point up, interestingly, how some freelance meditation teachers are prone to bend the rules in their CVs just like the rest of us. When Dharma becomes your source of income, that's always a danger.
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby philji » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:06 am

Following on from comments here, I don't think anyone is disputIng Mr Kelly's ability to teach meditation...but maybe to rein in the advertising and amend some of the language used. I don't think what Mingyur Rinpoche and Adyashanti are teaching is the same thing..Mr Kelly needs to decide which path he is walking.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Simon E. » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:19 am

:good:

Not even the same religion.
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:09 pm

Kim wrote: A person like that doesn't become new age overnight simply because the lama's permission isn't there after all.


A person becomes new age when, instead of teaching Dharma, they teach a sort of Milanese Stew:

He studied Buddhism with Professor Lily de Silva at the University of Kandy, Sri Lanka, Insight Meditation with Godwin Samararatne and at the Theravada monasteries, Inter-Spiritual Contemplative Meditation with Fr. Bede Griffiths and Anthony de Mello, Advaita at Sri Ramana Ashram, and Dzogchen and Mahamudra Meditation with Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche in Nepal.


Dzogchen and Advaita (not to mention Mahāmudra) are as incompatible as day and night.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 12, 2016 7:20 pm

Kim wrote:He's been studying with these rinpoche's for a few decades.


What does this mean?

Sorry, but at minimum, someone who is teaching Dzogchen or Mahāmudra should at least have rudimentary grasp of Tibetan. For example, we have this fellow in Sweden who has claimed he was authorized to teach Dzogchen by TUR, but when such claims are investigated, the basis upon which they are made seems to evaporite like morning mist when the sun rises.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby fckw » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:44 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:When Dharma becomes your source of income...

Well, that's true for pretty much all Tibetan monks and nuns, as well as for ChNN and a whole series of other highly respected teachers, isn't it?

I believe that Westerners have this odd reverse prejudice against Westerners charging money for Dharma. The idea that "it should be free" actually comes from an entirely different culture where a monastic lifestyle was in a much higher regard than it is in the West. Furthermore, it's quite well known that some mahasiddhas charged their students outrageous amounts of money for transmission of a certain teaching cycle, yet others again gave teachings to their students for free.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Malcolm » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:04 pm

fckw wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:When Dharma becomes your source of income...

Well, that's true for pretty much all Tibetan monks and nuns, as well as for ChNN and a whole series of other highly respected teachers, isn't it?

I believe that Westerners have this odd reverse prejudice against Westerners charging money for Dharma. The idea that "it should be free" actually comes from an entirely different culture where a monastic lifestyle was in a much higher regard than it is in the West. Furthermore, it's quite well known that some mahasiddhas charged their students outrageous amounts of money for transmission of a certain teaching cycle, yet others again gave teachings to their students for free.


ChNN has a pension.
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Re: Loch Kelly

Postby Knotty Veneer » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:40 pm

fckw wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:When Dharma becomes your source of income...

Well, that's true for pretty much all Tibetan monks and nuns, as well as for ChNN and a whole series of other highly respected teachers, isn't it?

I believe that Westerners have this odd reverse prejudice against Westerners charging money for Dharma. The idea that "it should be free" actually comes from an entirely different culture where a monastic lifestyle was in a much higher regard than it is in the West. Furthermore, it's quite well known that some mahasiddhas charged their students outrageous amounts of money for transmission of a certain teaching cycle, yet others again gave teachings to their students for free.


I agree. My point is that it is a danger and one that only some people Eastern or Western, ordained or otherwise fall into. Many do not. I agree teachers have got to eat but I think there should be a difference in motivation between Dharma teachers and those self-help gurus who charge silly money for motivational material.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.


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