Loch Kelly

Matylda
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Matylda » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:Well..what did he realize when he saw the morning star ?

In seeing the morning star and exclaiming, “I and all sentient beings on earth, together, attain enlightenment at the same time,”


http://www.abuddhistlibrary.com/Buddhis ... Buddha.htm
This is a late Chan story. It is mot to be taken literally.
yes of course.. it is not literal in its meaning.. but only in the course of practice, experience and realisation one may understand under realised teacher.. otherwise it may be very misguiding. Yes it is very late zen story but arousen from the very firm experience of realised ones.

krodha
Posts: 2132
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:11 am

Matylda wrote:yes of course.. it is not literal in its meaning.. but only in the course of practice, experience and realisation one may understand under realised teacher..
Even with practice and experience, if one truly believes that all sentient beings awaken and/or are liberated at the same time as one's personal awakening or liberation, they are deluded and tragically confused.
Matylda wrote:otherwise it may be very misguiding. Yes it is very late zen story but arousen from the very firm experience of realised ones.
Though obviously this was not their experience, ergo said statement cannot be interpreted literally.

When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

Otherwise when the first Buddha was liberated all beings would have been liberated and there would be no samsāra and no need for the buddhadharma whatsoever.

Matylda
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Matylda » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:42 am

krodha wrote:
Matylda wrote:yes of course.. it is not literal in its meaning.. but only in the course of practice, experience and realisation one may understand under realised teacher..
Even with practice and experience, if one truly believes that all sentient beings awaken and/or are liberated at the same time as one's personal awakening or liberation, they are deluded and tragically confused.
Matylda wrote:otherwise it may be very misguiding. Yes it is very late zen story but arousen from the very firm experience of realised ones.
Though obviously this was not their experience, ergo said statement cannot be interpreted literally.

When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

Otherwise when the first Buddha was liberated all beings would have been liberated and there would be no samsāra and no need for the buddhadharma whatsoever.
When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

This is what you may believe in, but it is NOT what zen masters taught.. therefore considering the source of information I would say that this kind of faith is invalid. Otherwise we should agree that all the gret zen masters of the last 1500 were deeply mistaken.

krodha
Posts: 2132
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:50 am

Matylda wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

This is what you may believe in
If by "what you may believe in" you mean to say what is taught in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism then yes, that is the view I stand by.
Matylda wrote:but it is NOT what zen masters taught..
Perhaps not what some Zen masters taught. But I wouldn't know, and nor do I really care since I don't practice Zen, nor does it interest me particularly. Plus this is the Mahāmudrā sub-forum.
Matylda wrote:therefore considering the source of information I would say that this kind of faith is invalid. Otherwise we should agree that all the gret zen masters of the last 1500 were deeply mistaken.
They very well may be if that is what they believe. But, that's not my business.

Matylda
Posts: 560
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 3:32 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Matylda » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:02 am

krodha wrote:
Matylda wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

This is what you may believe in
If by "what you may believe in" you mean to say what is taught in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism then yes, that is the view I stand by.
Matylda wrote:but it is NOT what zen masters taught..
Perhaps not what some Zen masters taught. But I wouldn't know, and nor do I really care since I don't practice Zen, nor does it interest me particularly. Plus this is the Mahāmudrā sub-forum.
Matylda wrote:therefore considering the source of information I would say that this kind of faith is invalid. Otherwise we should agree that all the gret zen masters of the last 1500 were deeply mistaken.
They very well may be if that is what they believe. But, that's not my business.
Yes, you are absolutely right.. it is mahamudra forum. However I responded in support of Malcolm's post where zen/chan was mentioned by name. And since this teaching about awakening is part of traditional zen cannon I just added how it may be approached from the perspective of zen practice and result. I did not intend to mingle with mahamudra things :)

I respect deeply your engagment in dharma practice of mahamudra of which I have no any idea, and forbid me my post, however many vajrayana dharma keens go to zen forum as well... so I hope I was not annoying anyone :)

philji
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by philji » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:40 am

krodha wrote:
Matylda wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.

This is what you may believe in
If by "what you may believe in" you mean to say what is taught in Indian and Tibetan Buddhism then yes, that is the view I stand by.
Matylda wrote:but it is NOT what zen masters taught..
Perhaps not what some Zen masters taught. But I wouldn't know, and nor do I really care since I don't practice Zen, nor does it interest me particularly. Plus this is the Mahāmudrā sub-forum.
Matylda wrote:therefore considering the source of information I would say that this kind of faith is invalid. Otherwise we should agree that all the gret zen masters of the last 1500 were deeply mistaken.
They very well may be if that is what they believe. But, that's not my business.
Good to hear your comments, understanding different approaches can be very useful. Seems like much of the problem comes from words/ labels/ descriptions...such as awakening, enlightenment, non duality.... Let's hope we can at some point Recognize our own experience without feeling the need to describe it... Going back to original question which I posed, I am happy to hear that Mingyur Rinpoche and Loch Kelly will be meeting to resolve the question of authorisation...

Yes, you are absolutely right.. it is mahamudra forum. However I responded in support of Malcolm's post where zen/chan was mentioned by name. And since this teaching about awakening is part of traditional zen cannon I just added how it may be approached from the perspective of zen practice and result. I did not intend to mingle with mahamudra things :)

I respect deeply your engagment in dharma practice of mahamudra of which I have no any idea, and forbid me my post, however many vajrayana dharma keens go to zen forum as well... so I hope I was not annoying anyone :)
Last edited by Ayu on Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed quote

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24447
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:12 pm

JAC72 wrote:This is a pretty typical way to talk about whether the host can get enough people to attend for a teacher to accept an invitation to spend 5 days including travel. You can easily look at the fees on Loch’s website which are reasonable and similar to other dharma teachers.
I have never heard of such arrangement being required by any Dharma teacher that I know of, up to and including HH Sakya Trizin. HH Dalai Lama is a different case, because, as a former head of state, he travels with an entourage.

In my opinion, apart from travel expenses, no Dharma teacher worth their salt should have any expectation of making a profit from their teachings. Making a profit from teaching Dharma is extremely gauche. Should students wish to make donations out of their devotion to this or that teacher, this is fine. When students understand that they must collaborate together to cover expenses and so forth in order to invite a teacher, this is also fine. But to set fees with the notion that teaching 1-5 students is too few in order to spend 5 days working with them is extremely saddening.

Now of course, if one is teaching inside of an institution like Omega or Kripalu, etc., these companies set a fee structure out of which a teacher will be paid. But the idea that someone decides to teach students based on whether there are "enough" students, especially in the case of teachings derived from the Tibetan and other traditions which have traditionally circulated in small groups, is exceedingly strange.
JAC72 wrote: 2. Loch is a wonderful person who has mainly done clinical social work in New York City with the severely mentally ill, the homeless and families of 9/11, where he was a first responder.
Being a Dharma teacher has a different set of qualifications than does being a wonderful person, etc. The latter is not necessarily commensurate with the former.

Of course, people are free and they can do what they like.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:32 pm

These nondualists, as well as Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers, never recognize the conceptualizing mind.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:37 pm

Fees to Tibetan Buddhism are tax deductible in some countries, if the religion is setup right with the government.

Fees to nondualists, are just to make them wealthy.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14813
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:23 pm

krodha wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.
You are speaking from experience, right?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24447
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:25 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:... Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers...never recognize the conceptualizing mind.
That is a huge overgeneralization, so huge as certainly to be false.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:... Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers...never recognize the conceptualizing mind.
That is a huge overgeneralization, so huge as certainly to be false.
I don't know how huge it is, but it is certainly false. :smile:

Mods, since this thread seems to be turning into a "Let's All Hate On Loch Kelly" thread, perhaps it could be moved to a more appropriate forum?
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

Simon E.
Posts: 4372
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Simon E. » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:47 pm

BuddhaFollower wrote:These nondualists, as well as Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers, never recognize the conceptualizing mind.

You sir/madam are racist. And as such, no Buddha follower.
" My heart's in the Highlands
my heart is not here.
My heart's in the Highlands
chasing the deer."

Robert V.C. Burns.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24447
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:51 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:... Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers...never recognize the conceptualizing mind.
That is a huge overgeneralization, so huge as certainly to be false.
I don't know how huge it is, but it is certainly false. :smile:

Mods, since this thread seems to be turning into a "Let's All Hate On Loch Kelly" thread, perhaps it could be moved to a more appropriate forum?
I don't hate Loch Kelly. I have never met him.

I was responding to some facts which are available to anyone, since someone brought up his career.

And in any case, my lack of sympathy towards "spiritual workshop" culture is well known. These teachings, sadly have no lineage to speak of, and will never last beyond the lifetime of their promulgators, whether or not they obtain the "endorsement" of this or that famous Lama, Hindu Guru or western self-proclaimed "awakened master."
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:I don't hate Loch Kelly. I have never met him.

I was responding to some facts which are available to anyone, since someone brought up his career.

And in any case, my lack of sympathy towards "spiritual workshop" culture is well known. These teachings, sadly have no lineage to speak of, and will never last beyond the lifetime of their promulgators, whether or not they obtain the "endorsement" of this or that famous Lama, Hindu Guru or western self-proclaimed "awakened master."
That's really great. I still think the thread should be moved, but it doesn't really matter.
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 24447
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 4:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:I don't hate Loch Kelly. I have never met him.

I was responding to some facts which are available to anyone, since someone brought up his career.

And in any case, my lack of sympathy towards "spiritual workshop" culture is well known. These teachings, sadly have no lineage to speak of, and will never last beyond the lifetime of their promulgators, whether or not they obtain the "endorsement" of this or that famous Lama, Hindu Guru or western self-proclaimed "awakened master."
That's really great. I still think the thread should be moved, but it doesn't really matter.
It would be a better idea to the delete the thread in its entirety, since this is a forum for discussion of Buddhadharma, and not Milanese stews.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
Sudarsana Mandala, Tibetan Medicine and Herbs
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


Free of hope and fear, relax.
Human life spent in
a state of great spaciousness is enjoyable.


— Kunzang Dechen Lingpa

BuddhaFollower
Posts: 602
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 1:41 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by BuddhaFollower » Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:14 pm

Simon E. wrote:
BuddhaFollower wrote:These nondualists, as well as Caucasian Tibetan Buddhist teachers, never recognize the conceptualizing mind.

You sir/madam are racist. And as such, no Buddha follower.
2016 is the rebirth global racism.
Just recognize the conceptualizing mind.

krodha
Posts: 2132
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:12 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.
You are speaking from experience, right?
Speaking from experience that I'm not liberated even though other masters have been? Certainly. That is your experience as well.

As for awakening, that is different than liberation. Yet still, when one is awakened, all beings are not awakened. The entire notion is absurd.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 5463
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:49 pm

krodha wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.
You are speaking from experience, right?
Speaking from experience that I'm not liberated even though other masters have been? Certainly. That is your experience as well.

As for awakening, that is different than liberation. Yet still, when one is awakened, all beings are not awakened. The entire notion is absurd.
Thanks for that illuminating response, Mr. Dzogchen!


:focus:

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:I still think the thread should be moved, but it doesn't really matter.
It would be a better idea to the delete the thread in its entirety, since this is a forum for discussion of Buddhadharma, and not Milanese stews.
I like your tolerance. I guess you prefer Tibetan stews?
Through Dzogchen we can really understand what God is and we don’t have to worry if there is a God or not. God always exists as our real nature, the base, for everybody. - Chögyal Namkhai Norbu

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 14813
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:17 pm

krodha wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:When a sentient being awakens or is liberated, that incident occurs for them and not anyone else.
You are speaking from experience, right?
Speaking from experience that I'm not liberated even though other masters have been? Certainly. That is your experience as well.

As for awakening, that is different than liberation. Yet still, when one is awakened, all beings are not awakened. The entire notion is absurd.
If you can show me your "being", then I will show you my "liberation".
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests