Loch Kelly

krodha
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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:18 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:If you can show me your "being", then I will show you my "liberation".
What does that even mean, Greg?

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Grigoris » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:36 pm

krodha wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:If you can show me your "being", then I will show you my "liberation".
What does that even mean, Greg?
It means that instead of getting caught up in the illusion and talking about IDEAS like: liberation/awakening, suffering, sentient beings, etc... that you should just get down to it and then come back and help enlighten us idiots too.

As for Loch Kelly: Is the man a fraud? I cannot say with 100% confidence. I know is that I am. And that's a good enough starting point for me.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:57 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:t means that instead of getting caught up in the illusion and talking about IDEAS like: liberation/awakening,
Liberation vs. awakening is not some sort of "idea"... and certainly not a notion I have fabricated.

Liberation means being liberated from cyclic existence via completely exhausting the cause for the arising of cyclic existence.

Awakening is simply the first instance of recognizing dharmatā.

If you're going to assert that one must be liberated in order to define liberation per the suttas, sūtras, śāstras and tantras (and discuss said definition of liberation), then this entire forum might as well shut down.

As for awakening, you asked me that last week in the other thread. I didn't answer. I don't like broadcasting my experiences or talking about myself.
Sherab Dorje wrote:suffering, sentient beings, etc...
Like I said if we can't discuss suffering and sentient beings in this forum dedicated to the buddhadharma then we might as well close shop.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:33 pm

krodha wrote:I don't like broadcasting my experiences or talking about myself.
That's, like, so admirable.


Anyhoo, :focus:

JAC72 wrote:As you can read in Loch's book, at the end of a one-on-one student-teacher interview in 2004 Mingyur Rinpoche said to Loch, “I would like you to teach Sutra Mahamudra.”
OK, I had a look through the book and here's the relevant passage:
In 2004, during a meeting with Mingyur Rinpoche after a retreat, I told him about the awareness approach I was developing to teach meditation. After a long, in-depth discussion during which Rinpoche interviewed me about my view and experience, he said, “I would like you to teach Sutra Mahamudra.” When he authorized me to teach, he emphasized how important it was to include contemporary science and to find ways to make awakening more available to people.
I also see now that no less than my man Anam Thubten wrote a blurb for the book:
This is one of best contemporary books on the integration of meditation and nonduality. Personally, I’m thankful to Loch for offering this gift to humanity at this crucial time when so many people are looking for living spirituality free from outdated paradigms. Read this if you want to wake up to the beautiful mystery of life.
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Malcolm » Wed Aug 17, 2016 8:41 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
I also see now that no less than my man Anam Thubten wrote a blurb for the book:
This is one of best contemporary books on the integration of meditation and nonduality. Personally, I’m thankful to Loch for offering this gift to humanity at this crucial time when so many people are looking for living spirituality free from outdated paradigms. Read this if you want to wake up to the beautiful mystery of life.
It's nice to have fans.
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Relax, don’t worry about all the problems of samsara. Everything is relative. But try to be present.


— Chogyal Namkhai Norbu

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
I also see now that no less than my man Anam Thubten wrote a blurb for the book:
This is one of best contemporary books on the integration of meditation and nonduality. Personally, I’m thankful to Loch for offering this gift to humanity at this crucial time when so many people are looking for living spirituality free from outdated paradigms. Read this if you want to wake up to the beautiful mystery of life.
It's nice to have fans.
Indeed.
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:18 pm

On Mulligan Stews:

In my misspent youth I used have this friend/neighbor/pot dealer, i'd go over to his house on monday nights, and once we had the munchies we'd make what we called "monday night surprise." The point was to try to make something edible (not that hard in our state) out of ingredients like:

1 can government cheese (truly abhorrent stuff, obtained by the fact that his sister was on welfare)
1 white can with a picture of a pig on it (obtained the same way)
1 one bag frozen peas that had been in the freezer for some time.

Needless to say, no matter what techniques we employed, it all tasted terrible. We ate it anyway, for reasons you can probably figure out.

These days I could go to the organic farm behind me, pick up three or 4 random ingredients, saute them with a little rice vinegar, garlic, and a pinch of sugar and make something really tasty. The ingredients make all the difference.

That said, of course neither one will ever be gourmet fare, no matter how hard I try.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Aug 17, 2016 10:19 pm

stew.jpg
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It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Grigoris » Thu Aug 18, 2016 1:53 pm

krodha wrote:Liberation vs. awakening is not some sort of "idea"... and certainly not a notion I have fabricated.
If you are not talking from experience, then you are talking about ideas. Actually, even if you are talking from experience you are talking about ideas.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Thu Aug 18, 2016 5:28 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:Liberation vs. awakening is not some sort of "idea"... and certainly not a notion I have fabricated.
If you are not talking from experience, then you are talking about ideas. Actually, even if you are talking from experience you are talking about ideas.
With awakening and liberation, the latter is merely an uninterrupted extension of the former, ergo if one has experienced the former, the latter is equally known to be plausible and legitimate.

That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Grigoris » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:16 am

krodha wrote:That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
Are you sure?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:53 am

Sherab Dorje wrote:
krodha wrote:That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
Are you sure?
Are you unsure of this?

When you think "sweet" or even say the word "sweet" does a sweet taste suddenly manifest?

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by Astus » Fri Aug 19, 2016 9:05 am

krodha wrote:That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
"If a word and its referent are not different,
[The word] fire would burn one’s mouth;
If they’re different there’ll be no comprehension.
This you, the speaker of truth, have stated."

(Nagarjuna: Hymn To [the Buddha,] The World Transcendent, v 7)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:43 pm

Astus wrote:
krodha wrote:That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
"If a word and its referent are not different,
[The word] fire would burn one’s mouth;
If they’re different there’ll be no comprehension.
This you, the speaker of truth, have stated."

(Nagarjuna: Hymn To [the Buddha,] The World Transcendent, v 7)
Right, I wasn't advocating for a truly established referent.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:49 pm

krodha wrote:
Astus wrote:
krodha wrote:That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
"If a word and its referent are not different,
[The word] fire would burn one’s mouth;
If they’re different there’ll be no comprehension.
This you, the speaker of truth, have stated."

(Nagarjuna: Hymn To [the Buddha,] The World Transcendent, v 7)
Right, I wasn't advocating for a truly established referent.
May I point out that this thread and its, admittedly not truly established, referent seem to be somewhat different at this point?
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Fri Aug 19, 2016 4:19 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:May I point out that this thread and its, admittedly not truly established, referent seem to be somewhat different at this point?
It's for the better.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Aug 19, 2016 5:09 pm

krodha wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:May I point out that this thread and its, admittedly not truly established, referent seem to be somewhat different at this point?
It's for the better.
I beg to differ. :smile:
It takes a great being to be daring enough to cultivate a bad reputation. - Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by PierreDeSuis » Mon Aug 22, 2016 6:56 am

krodha wrote: With awakening and liberation, the latter is merely an uninterrupted extension of the former, ergo if one has experienced the former, the latter is equally known to be plausible and legitimate.

That said, obviously discussing the taste of sugar implies "ideas" regarding that taste, but the taste itself is not an idea.
I think this is a very common idea. I kind of wish it were true. Any teacher of Mahamudra would be wise to avoid this idea of liberation as 'uninterrupted extension'.
If Loch Kelly really is a competent Mahamudra teacher then you should ask him about this very issue of what constitutes liberation.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by krodha » Mon Aug 22, 2016 9:07 am

PierreDeSuis wrote:I think this is a very common idea. I kind of wish it were true.
Luckily for you, you don't have to wish.
PierreDeSuis wrote:Any teacher of Mahamudra would be wise to avoid this idea of liberation as 'uninterrupted extension'.
An unwise suggestion.
PierreDeSuis wrote:If Loch Kelly really is a competent Mahamudra teacher then you should ask him about this very issue of what constitutes liberation.
Well, he isn't competent, nor qualified... so the issue resolves itself.

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Re: Loch Kelly

Post by PierreDeSuis » Mon Aug 22, 2016 11:20 am

Well then in your view what is it that prevents liberation after awakening?

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