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Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 10:53 am
by Justmeagain
I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?

Thanks...

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:21 am
by Astus
So called sutra mahamudra includes calming meditation with and without object, and insight meditation with and without analysis.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:27 am
by Wayfarer
I think it's more a matter of the two practices being taught and practiced in different cultural milieux - Zen being Japanese, Mahamudra being Tibetan.

It's worth remembering that until the 20th century, these two cultures were utterly separate, with very little communication, certainly no notion of 'cross-cultural comparison'. So even though the basic practice seems similar, the philosophical attitude is rather different, as they developed in such different environments.

Actually coming to think of it, it reminds me of an anecdote I once read:
In the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts. One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet. The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat, slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.

At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, “What is this?”

Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.

Again Master Seung Sahn asked, “What is this?”

After a long period silence, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, “Don’t they have oranges in Korea?”

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:08 pm
by Astus
Wayfarer wrote:Zen being Japanese, Mahamudra being Tibetan
That might be relevant in some aspects, like robes, instruments, etc., but not in the basic concept of the path. To find a common denominator between Zen and Mahamudra, it is mainly the prajnaparamita teachings. But then, the prajnaparamita is shared among all Mahayana traditions anyway.

Shikantaza is the immediate recognition of the buddhas' wisdom, there are no steps or stages provided. The Dagpo Kagyu tradition provides a step by step instruction on the stages from the preliminaries to the four yogas. That amounts to more than just a "philosophical attitude".

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:02 pm
by Justmeagain
Thanks,

Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.

Shikantaza involves absolutely NO analytical investigation at all...whereas (my understanding) of Mahamudra is that it entails very much an analysis of mind. I was taught the reductive method of identifying the mind as it appears as the object of negation then the subsequent process revealing both its unfindability and its actual nature.

The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.

What do you think?

[...just realised that sounded like a really bad pun...wasn't intended!]

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:21 pm
by Astus
Justmeagain wrote:Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
...
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
Zen practice begins and ends at non-abiding. Mahamudra provides a gradual path to non-abiding. There is no contradiction in that, they are simply different approaches.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:24 pm
by Malcolm
Astus wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
...
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
Zen practice begins and ends at non-abiding. Mahamudra provides a gradual path to non-abiding. There is no contradiction in that, they are simply different approaches.

Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:47 pm
by DGA
Justmeagain wrote:I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?

Thanks...
to make a meaningful comparison, you would need to get instruction in both practices from capable masters, and to practice them. Otherwise, you just have an intellectual exercise.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:49 pm
by Malcolm
DGA wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?

Thanks...
to make a meaningful comparison, you would need to get instruction in both practices from capable masters, and to practice them. Otherwise, you just have an intellectual exercise.

Yes, and that will take many years. So better to pick one and practice it. Choose well!

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:50 pm
by Justmeagain
But I think the process of practice is a given.

One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.

Do both practices lead to the same end?

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:59 pm
by DGA
Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.

One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
This is all speculation and hearsay unless and until you have received explicit oral instruction from competent masters in both traditions, and practice to see for yourself.

Competent masters of shikantaza are very rare birds, by the way. Ask about this in the Soto Zen forum.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
So I've heard. But why take my word for it, or that of any other dork you meet online?

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:06 pm
by Nyedrag Yeshe
Wayfarer wrote:Mahamudra being Tibetan.
Mahamudra came straight from India.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:14 pm
by Astus
Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.
Although one can say that "Mahamudra cannot be taught" and "it doesn't have an identity to show", there is still a gradual path employed to train in it.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:18 pm
by Malcolm
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.
Although one can say that "Mahamudra cannot be taught" and "it doesn't have an identity to show", there is still a gradual path employed to train in it.
Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:21 pm
by Justmeagain
DGA wrote: So I've heard. But why take my word for it, or that of any other dork you meet online?
Well we could say that regarding any enquiry in here :shrug:

But, as it happens I did receive Mahamudra teachings some time ago and have only recently been given direct teachings on Shikantaza from a respected Soto Zen priest. However, access to 'my teacher' is limited and I also trust the opinions of (some) in here :bow:

I guess my concern is that I don't want to waste my time on a practice that is not as effective as another.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:54 pm
by Astus
Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
All Mahayana traditions have buddhahood as their goal. As for any of them being better, quicker, higher, etc., while that can be an entertaining topic to discuss, when it comes to walking the path, the inclinations and opportunities of the individual decide what is fitting.
I guess my concern is that I don't want to waste my time on a practice that is not as effective as another.
Effective is always what works for you. As you may have already heard, zazen is good for nothing and in mahamudra there is nothing to do.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:55 pm
by Malcolm
Astus wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
All Mahayana traditions have buddhahood as their goal.
Well, no. Some have buddhahood as their basis.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:00 pm
by Astus
Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.
Do you then call the rest what? Preliminaries? Still, they are preliminaries somewhat specific in each tradition.

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:01 pm
by Astus
Malcolm wrote:Some have buddhahood as their basis.
It is still the goal/fruit as well, isn't it?

Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:05 pm
by Malcolm
Astus wrote:
Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.
Do you then call the rest what? Preliminaries? Still, they are preliminaries somewhat specific in each tradition.
The principle of both mahāmudra and the great perfection is to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind. That is accomplished on the basis of the intimate instructions of a qualified guru. But in both cases there is no gradual path.