If that's all there was to do you'd be done with any and all formal practice after a successful introduction or pointing out. Maybe that's true for a very small percentage, but seems very unlikely for most. Even Garab Dorje's Three Statements are more than just one thing to do!Malcolm wrote:No. Once you have seen the nature of the mind, that is all there is to do.Johnny Dangerous wrote:Malcolm wrote:
That's all Mahāmudra is.
Seems like a tricky way of seeing it, realization of the nature of mind would always be non-gradual wouldn't it? Sustaining that realization on the other hand would have to be gradual for the vast majority of folks.
Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
- Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
- conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
I'm parroting Kongtrul. Everything up to SemDe does not go "beyond mind." longDe, and especially MenNgakDe (Nyingthik), do, in fact, Go "beyond mind." I believe this to be a correct statement, but I choose not to elaborate further.....Matt J wrote:Why do you say that?
conebeckham wrote:Certainly, for Dzogchen, we can say this...but I think the "referent" pointed out in Dzogchen is, maybe, potentially, a bit different.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!
Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?
Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!
Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?Malcolm wrote:Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!
Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.Justmeagain wrote:I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?Malcolm wrote:Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.Justmeagain wrote:I suspect this thread needs to be moved to another home!
Or are we still trying to establish what Mahamudra is before comparing it to the more easily defined Shikantaza?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!Malcolm wrote:Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.Justmeagain wrote:I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?Malcolm wrote:
Mahamudra is the nature of your mind and everything else.
How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
One can find common elements between the Great Seal and Just Sitting. Both are meant as the realisation of the ultimate truth, for instance. Both view the ultimate wisdom as the absence of attachment and detachment. Both see beings as originally enlightened and appearances as originally pure.Justmeagain wrote:How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.Justmeagain wrote:And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!Malcolm wrote:Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.Justmeagain wrote:
I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?
How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Just had a thought looking over this thread, about a line from a Kobun Chino talk (I think the talk was called "No No Zero" or something like that.
He said that zazen, and he's Soto so he'd be talking about shikantaza (which of course isn't a thing you can point to which is how threads like this get so long), is the absence of samadhi. If I'm remembering right, he said that we're in samadhi all day long- hungry samadhi, angry samadhi, horny samadhi, content samadhi, exalted samadhi, whatever. Zazen (which of course he means more expansively than literally just sitting) is when we abandon samadhi. I might even add "are free from the tyranny of samadhi."
The language resonates with some of the lines like "not meditating, not being distracted," that Tulku Urgyen was so fond of.
He said that zazen, and he's Soto so he'd be talking about shikantaza (which of course isn't a thing you can point to which is how threads like this get so long), is the absence of samadhi. If I'm remembering right, he said that we're in samadhi all day long- hungry samadhi, angry samadhi, horny samadhi, content samadhi, exalted samadhi, whatever. Zazen (which of course he means more expansively than literally just sitting) is when we abandon samadhi. I might even add "are free from the tyranny of samadhi."
The language resonates with some of the lines like "not meditating, not being distracted," that Tulku Urgyen was so fond of.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
And while it's on my mind, sounds like some of the amanasi/amanasikara instructions, which in turn always makes me think of Uchiyama's opening the hand of thought.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Now I'm curious - what instructions are usually given out on this particular point in Sutra-Mahamudra?Malcolm wrote:he second is called "vipaśyāna," because one recognizes that movement and calmness are identical in nature.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
No, the point of view of both are vastly different, their application, result, and practice are also quite different.Justmeagain wrote:And what is the nature of this appearance? I'd say Emptiness has the appearance of a lack of inherent existence. But maybe thats pushing it somewhat!Malcolm wrote:Emptiness has no appearance. Mahāmudra does.Justmeagain wrote:
I thought Emptiness was the nature of the mind and everything else and Mahamudra was a method to experience this?
How about I put my OP this way....are Mahamudra and Shikantaza synonymous?
The only element that is similar is the non-conceptual foundation of them methods. Although, I'm skeptical of shikantaza being non-conceptual.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Beside entertaining of the comparative mind, how does all this 'knowledge' help anyone?
I seem to remember the 6th Zen Patriarch saying that the teachings were neither gradual or sudden, and that gradual and sudden only applied to the students. Gradual or sudden are both concepts. It's not a choice that one makes that reveals reality.
I seem to remember the 6th Zen Patriarch saying that the teachings were neither gradual or sudden, and that gradual and sudden only applied to the students. Gradual or sudden are both concepts. It's not a choice that one makes that reveals reality.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
How do "appearances" differ from "form", practically? What does the experience of Mahamudra entail that distinguishes it from emptiness/luminosity, such that it entails appearances while the other does not?Malcolm wrote: Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.
What of the saying, "Mind without projection is mahamudra"?
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan (tr. chintokkong)
若覓真不動。動上有不動。
"Search for what it really is to be unmoving in what does not move amid movement."
-Huineng (tr. Mark Crosbie)
ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །
-Yaoshan Weiyan (tr. chintokkong)
若覓真不動。動上有不動。
"Search for what it really is to be unmoving in what does not move amid movement."
-Huineng (tr. Mark Crosbie)
ཚེ་འདི་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ཆོས་པ་མིན། །
འཁོར་བ་ལ་ཞེན་ན་ངེས་འབྱུང་མིན། །
བདག་དོན་ལ་ཞེན་ན་བྱང་སེམས་མིན། །
འཛིན་པ་བྱུང་ན་ལྟ་བ་མིན། །
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
As I see it, the teachings of Mahamudra and Shikantaza are both maps of the same territory. Neither are useful as objects for examination unless one is on the ground finding their own way (with the help of a guide) and able to see the landmarks for themselves. To compare two maps when unfamiliar with the actual territory lacks any meaningfulness.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Freedom from proliferation, aka, simplicity.fckw wrote:Now I'm curious - what instructions are usually given out on this particular point in Sutra-Mahamudra?Malcolm wrote:he second is called "vipaśyāna," because one recognizes that movement and calmness are identical in nature.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Luminosity is a completion stage experience in which all appearances subside. Mahāmudra is the experience of union, in which appearance and emptiness are a seamless unity. Rather than being treated as relative (appearance) and emptiness (ultimate), here the two truths are seamless and unified where the distinctions between ultimate and relative, conditioned and unconditioned, etc., are seen through.Temicco wrote:How do "appearances" differ from "form", practically? What does the experience of Mahamudra entail that distinguishes it from emptiness/luminosity, such that it entails appearances while the other does not?Malcolm wrote: Emptiness and luminosity ('od gsal) are synonyms. When one is in the experience of emptiness or luminosity there are no appearances. In Mahāmudra there are appearances. Which appearances? The appearances of the world.
What of the saying, "Mind without projection is mahamudra"?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Ah, thanks, that again clarifies something.Malcolm wrote:[
Luminosity is a completion stage experience in which all appearances subside. Mahāmudra is the experience of union, in which appearance and emptiness are a seamless unity. Rather than being treated as relative (appearance) and emptiness (ultimate), here the two truths are seamless and unified where the distinctions between ultimate and relative, conditioned and unconditioned, etc., are seen through.
Would you say this is fairly comparable to the kadag and lhundrup aspects of the base in Dzogchen?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Well, sort of. The difference is that ka dag can never be a basis for delusion, since it has no appearances. In Dzogchen teachings, the basis for delusion is lhundrup.fckw wrote:Ah, thanks, that again clarifies something.Malcolm wrote:[
Luminosity is a completion stage experience in which all appearances subside. Mahāmudra is the experience of union, in which appearance and emptiness are a seamless unity. Rather than being treated as relative (appearance) and emptiness (ultimate), here the two truths are seamless and unified where the distinctions between ultimate and relative, conditioned and unconditioned, etc., are seen through.
Would you say this is fairly comparable to the kadag and lhundrup aspects of the base in Dzogchen?