Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
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Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?
Thanks...
Thanks...
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
So called sutra mahamudra includes calming meditation with and without object, and insight meditation with and without analysis.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
I think it's more a matter of the two practices being taught and practiced in different cultural milieux - Zen being Japanese, Mahamudra being Tibetan.
It's worth remembering that until the 20th century, these two cultures were utterly separate, with very little communication, certainly no notion of 'cross-cultural comparison'. So even though the basic practice seems similar, the philosophical attitude is rather different, as they developed in such different environments.
Actually coming to think of it, it reminds me of an anecdote I once read:
It's worth remembering that until the 20th century, these two cultures were utterly separate, with very little communication, certainly no notion of 'cross-cultural comparison'. So even though the basic practice seems similar, the philosophical attitude is rather different, as they developed in such different environments.
Actually coming to think of it, it reminds me of an anecdote I once read:
In the early 1970s, two Buddhist masters met in Cambridge, Massachusetts. One of them, Kalu Rinpoche, was a renowned Tibetan meditation master who had spent many years in solitary retreat in the remote mountain caves of Tibet. The other was Seung Sahn, a Korean Zen master who had recently come to the United States and was supporting himself by working in a Providence, Rhode Island, Laundromat, slowly planting the seeds of Zen in the minds of those coming to wash their clothes.
At this now famous meeting of enlightened minds, Seung Sahn held up an orange and, in classic Zen dharma combat fashion, demanded, “What is this?”
Kalu Rinpoche just looked at him, wonderingly.
Again Master Seung Sahn asked, “What is this?”
After a long period silence, Rinpoche turned to his translator and asked, “Don’t they have oranges in Korea?”
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
That might be relevant in some aspects, like robes, instruments, etc., but not in the basic concept of the path. To find a common denominator between Zen and Mahamudra, it is mainly the prajnaparamita teachings. But then, the prajnaparamita is shared among all Mahayana traditions anyway.Wayfarer wrote:Zen being Japanese, Mahamudra being Tibetan
Shikantaza is the immediate recognition of the buddhas' wisdom, there are no steps or stages provided. The Dagpo Kagyu tradition provides a step by step instruction on the stages from the preliminaries to the four yogas. That amounts to more than just a "philosophical attitude".
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
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- Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:12 pm
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Thanks,
Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
Shikantaza involves absolutely NO analytical investigation at all...whereas (my understanding) of Mahamudra is that it entails very much an analysis of mind. I was taught the reductive method of identifying the mind as it appears as the object of negation then the subsequent process revealing both its unfindability and its actual nature.
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
What do you think?
[...just realised that sounded like a really bad pun...wasn't intended!]
Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
Shikantaza involves absolutely NO analytical investigation at all...whereas (my understanding) of Mahamudra is that it entails very much an analysis of mind. I was taught the reductive method of identifying the mind as it appears as the object of negation then the subsequent process revealing both its unfindability and its actual nature.
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
What do you think?
[...just realised that sounded like a really bad pun...wasn't intended!]
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Zen practice begins and ends at non-abiding. Mahamudra provides a gradual path to non-abiding. There is no contradiction in that, they are simply different approaches.Justmeagain wrote:Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
...
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Astus wrote:Zen practice begins and ends at non-abiding. Mahamudra provides a gradual path to non-abiding. There is no contradiction in that, they are simply different approaches.Justmeagain wrote:Whilst I appreciate they're different traditions I can't help but feel they're so far apart so as to be almost contradictory.
...
The two practices couldn't be further apart in my opinion.
Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
to make a meaningful comparison, you would need to get instruction in both practices from capable masters, and to practice them. Otherwise, you just have an intellectual exercise.Justmeagain wrote:I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?
Thanks...
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
DGA wrote:to make a meaningful comparison, you would need to get instruction in both practices from capable masters, and to practice them. Otherwise, you just have an intellectual exercise.Justmeagain wrote:I keep reading that the Soto Zen practice of Shikantaza, 'Just Sitting' with no focus or any sort of analytical investigation into the mind.....can be equated to Sutra Mahamudra practices....can someone clarify how or if this is even correct?
Thanks...
Yes, and that will take many years. So better to pick one and practice it. Choose well!
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
This is all speculation and hearsay unless and until you have received explicit oral instruction from competent masters in both traditions, and practice to see for yourself.Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Competent masters of shikantaza are very rare birds, by the way. Ask about this in the Soto Zen forum.
So I've heard. But why take my word for it, or that of any other dork you meet online?Do both practices lead to the same end?
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Mahamudra came straight from India.Wayfarer wrote:Mahamudra being Tibetan.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Although one can say that "Mahamudra cannot be taught" and "it doesn't have an identity to show", there is still a gradual path employed to train in it.Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.Astus wrote:Although one can say that "Mahamudra cannot be taught" and "it doesn't have an identity to show", there is still a gradual path employed to train in it.Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra is non-gradual, actually.
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Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Well we could say that regarding any enquiry in hereDGA wrote: So I've heard. But why take my word for it, or that of any other dork you meet online?
But, as it happens I did receive Mahamudra teachings some time ago and have only recently been given direct teachings on Shikantaza from a respected Soto Zen priest. However, access to 'my teacher' is limited and I also trust the opinions of (some) in here
I guess my concern is that I don't want to waste my time on a practice that is not as effective as another.
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
All Mahayana traditions have buddhahood as their goal. As for any of them being better, quicker, higher, etc., while that can be an entertaining topic to discuss, when it comes to walking the path, the inclinations and opportunities of the individual decide what is fitting.Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
Effective is always what works for you. As you may have already heard, zazen is good for nothing and in mahamudra there is nothing to do.I guess my concern is that I don't want to waste my time on a practice that is not as effective as another.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Well, no. Some have buddhahood as their basis.Astus wrote:All Mahayana traditions have buddhahood as their goal.Justmeagain wrote:But I think the process of practice is a given.
One is utterly without form, the other its antithesis.
Do both practices lead to the same end?
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
Do you then call the rest what? Preliminaries? Still, they are preliminaries somewhat specific in each tradition.Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
It is still the goal/fruit as well, isn't it?Malcolm wrote:Some have buddhahood as their basis.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?
2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.
3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.
4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.
1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
Re: Mahamudra same as Shikantaza
The principle of both mahāmudra and the great perfection is to distinguish the mind from the nature of the mind. That is accomplished on the basis of the intimate instructions of a qualified guru. But in both cases there is no gradual path.Astus wrote:Do you then call the rest what? Preliminaries? Still, they are preliminaries somewhat specific in each tradition.Malcolm wrote:Mahāmudra and Dzogchen are both paths of self-liberation. There is no gradual training for either.