Mahamudra and Theravada practices

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Justmeagain
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Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Justmeagain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:34 pm

Hi,

I am just teading Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoches book 'The Practice Of Mahamudra'

On page 29 he suggests that the end result is the same whether we practice Tantric or Sutra Mahamudra. The latter being Samatha and Vipassana.

Does this mean that Theravadins acheive Mahamudra too by practicing Vipassana and Samatha?

_/|\_

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:35 pm

Justmeagain wrote:Hi,

I am just teading Drikung Kyabgon Chetsang Rinpoches book 'The Practice Of Mahamudra'

On page 29 he suggests that the end result is the same whether we practice Tantric or Sutra Mahamudra. The latter being Samatha and Vipassana.

Does this mean that Theravadins acheive Mahamudra too by practicing Vipassana and Samatha?

_/|\_

No, there is the small matter of the view and motivation.

Also it is not certain that the result of sūtra and tantra are the same. There are many assertions in the tantra that the result of practicing Vajrayāna is higher.
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Justmeagain
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Justmeagain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:52 pm

Higher in what respect?

Isn't a realisation of the nature of the mind the same in both respects?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:58 pm

Justmeagain wrote:Higher in what respect?

Isn't a realisation of the nature of the mind the same in both respects?
Higher in terms of omniscience and realization.
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

Justmeagain
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Justmeagain » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:Higher in what respect?

Isn't a realisation of the nature of the mind the same in both respects?
Higher in terms of omniscience and realization.
But thats an assertion from Tantric practitioners yes?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:42 pm

Justmeagain wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Justmeagain wrote:Higher in what respect?

Isn't a realisation of the nature of the mind the same in both respects?
Higher in terms of omniscience and realization.
But thats an assertion from Tantric practitioners yes?

Well you are asking in the Mahamudra section so...
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Jan 16, 2017 11:58 pm

There are different paths, and relative stages of realization on the path of each, and in comparing one path to another.
However, once perfect realization (Buddhahood) is attained, there is no difference in the result.
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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Astus » Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:34 am

Justmeagain wrote:Does this mean that Theravadins acheive Mahamudra too by practicing Vipassana and Samatha?
First you might want to specify what calming and insight stand for in Theravada and in Mahamudra.

Also, if you want to study a structural interpretation of doctrines, Ringu Tulku's Daring Steps is a fine work for that.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

fckw
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by fckw » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:04 pm

The Vipassana practice practiced by Theravadins is usually quite different from that is commonly called Vipashyana in Vajrayana - despite having the same name. This is obvious to everyone who has experience with both Therevada-meditation and Vajrayana. For any reason however Vajrayana practitioners without experience of Therevada practice seem to think it's the same.

The best comparison I know between Therevada-Vipassana and Sutra-Mahamudra is in the book of Daniel Brown, Engler and Wilber "Transformations of Consciousness". Whereas there seems to be a common depth structure the experience on both paths are actually quite different. This is also my personal experience having practiced both systems.

I cannot talk about tantric Mahamudra as I have no experience with this practice and only a vague understanding.

Just one short comment:
There are many assertions in the tantra that the result of practicing Vajrayāna is higher.
Of course all of these assertions come from Vajrayana practitioners, not from Theravadins. Chinese would certainly claim that chinese noodles are superior to Italian pasta. (In my eyes there is a certain truth to this statement, though. But you have to have deeper experience with both systems to understand this on a more than superficial level.)

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:06 pm

fckw wrote:The Vipassana practice practiced by Theravadins is usually quite different...
There are several different approaches to it, actually.
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by fckw » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
fckw wrote:The Vipassana practice practiced by Theravadins is usually quite different...
There are several different approaches to it, actually.
Same for Therevada-Vipassana. Goenka meditation style is actually quite different to Mahasi Sayadaw meditation style.

(For any reason beyond my understanding the whole reasearch community on "mindfulness meditation" skips this essential point.)

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 19, 2017 3:31 pm

fckw wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
fckw wrote:The Vipassana practice practiced by Theravadins is usually quite different...
There are several different approaches to it, actually.
Same for Therevada-Vipassana. Goenka meditation style is actually quite different to Mahasi Sayadaw meditation style.

(For any reason beyond my understanding the whole reasearch community on "mindfulness meditation" skips this essential point.)

I was referring to Theravada in fact.
Atikosha
Tibetan Medicine Blog
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འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


The knowledge imparted through the guru’s instructions that formerly was unknown (avidyā) is vidyā.


—Treasury of the Supreme Vehicle, Longchenpa.

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Re: Mahamudra and Theravada practices

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:05 pm

fckw wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
fckw wrote:The Vipassana practice practiced by Theravadins is usually quite different...
There are several different approaches to it, actually.
Same for Therevada-Vipassana. Goenka meditation style is actually quite different to Mahasi Sayadaw meditation style.

(For any reason beyond my understanding the whole reasearch community on "mindfulness meditation" skips this essential point.)
It's because the mindfulness scene reduces EVERYTHING to an a priori universal spirituality, of which different practices are manifestations. Which is to say that the scholarship on mindfulness generally assumes what it sets out to prove.

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