Beginner in Mahamudra

Zolbec
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Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Zolbec »

Hello



I am interested in Mahamudra. I am in doubt between two books. I want to buy only one. Which one do you recommend? What is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?


The Practice of Tranquillity and Insight by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master by Gendun Rinpoche




Thanks.
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Josef
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Josef »

Zolbec wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am Hello



I am interested in Mahamudra. I am in doubt between two books. I want to buy only one. Which one do you recommend? What is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?


The Practice of Tranquillity and Insight by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master by Gendun Rinpoche




Thanks.
The best, and only introduction to Mahamudra is from an authentic teacher.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Astus »

Zolbec wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 amWhat is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?
Essentials of Mahamudra by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche should be the one that is quite thorough but at the same time not too complicated.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"
PeterC
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Zolbec wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 am Hello



I am interested in Mahamudra. I am in doubt between two books. I want to buy only one. Which one do you recommend? What is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?


The Practice of Tranquillity and Insight by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche

Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master by Gendun Rinpoche




Thanks.
You cannot, and should not, try to learn this from a book until you've received the instructions from a qualified teacher. Reading about it will result in you developing mental fabrications of what the practice is, that will make it harder to practice when you ultimately receive these instructions.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by philji »

The joy of living programs that Mingyur Rinpoche has designed on Tergar website can help start your journey.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

Astus wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:55 am
Zolbec wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 3:58 amWhat is the most complete and best introduction for beginners in Mahamudra?
Essentials of Mahamudra by Khenchen Thrangu Rinpoche should be the one that is quite thorough but at the same time not too complicated.
I'd recommend this one too. And folks, if Thrangu, or Gendun, or any other mahamudra master who puts out books on mahamudra didn't want people to read the material they wouldn't have put it out for people to read. All those books say yes you need a teacher, and then go on to offer skillful words in the meantime. Vajra cops all up in everybody's business every damn post.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

If you go w Thrangu's Practice of Tranquility and Insight, that's good too- it's actually not an mm book, it's on the standard sutra-style shamatha and vipasyana. Very useful practices, complements a lot of other meditation practices you may have been exposed to. Lots of equivalencies w what we've started just calling "mindfulness."
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:59 am Vajra cops all up in everybody's business every damn post.
Of course anyone *can* buy and read any book they like. The question is whether they *should*. Ask any vajrayana teacher what they think about that question, including the ones who are publishing these books: we all know what answer you'll get. For most of these texts, if you pick up the book it will have a similar warning on the cover or in the introduction.

So why are these teachers publishing these books? Because they want translations of important texts and commentaries thereof to be more widely available; because they've seen in recent history that important texts can be lost very easily; and because their students sincerely request that they do this. Doesn't mean that they think it's a good idea to read them without first receiving the relevant teachings.

Do I think that if someone reads this book without first receiving the teachings, then Mahakala will appear and split their head open with a blazing khatvanga? No, probably not. I'm just saying that it's *better* to first get instruction from a qualified teacher. This is how this material has been taught and learnt for centuries, and I don't feel that I'm in a position to say that all those lineage masters were misguided and I know better.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

[Silent scream]
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Tata1 »

PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am
passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:59 am Vajra cops all up in everybody's business every damn post.
Of course anyone *can* buy and read any book they like. The question is whether they *should*. Ask any vajrayana teacher what they think about that question, including the ones who are publishing these books: we all know what answer you'll get. For most of these texts, if you pick up the book it will have a similar warning on the cover or in the introduction.

So why are these teachers publishing these books? Because they want translations of important texts and commentaries thereof to be more widely available; because they've seen in recent history that important texts can be lost very easily; and because their students sincerely request that they do this. Doesn't mean that they think it's a good idea to read them without first receiving the relevant teachings.

Do I think that if someone reads this book without first receiving the teachings, then Mahakala will appear and split their head open with a blazing khatvanga? No, probably not. I'm just saying that it's *better* to first get instruction from a qualified teacher. This is how this material has been taught and learnt for centuries, and I don't feel that I'm in a position to say that all those lineage masters were misguided and I know better.
There are a lot of dharma editorials that offer the posibillty to publiah book in a "restricted" way
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by PeterC »

Look, OP asked for advice, and all sorts of advice was given - read this, read that, don't read anything. They can do whatever they like with that advice - it certainly makes no difference to me. But if you've got a textual reference saying that it's ok to study and engage in vajrayana practices without transmission (aside from things like the Drikung work-around), please do share it...
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Zolbec »

passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:13 am If you go w Thrangu's Practice of Tranquility and Insight, that's good too- it's actually not an mm book, it's on the standard sutra-style shamatha and vipasyana.

So can I practice the teachings of this book without a teacher?
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Grigoris »

Zolbec wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 pm
passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:13 am If you go w Thrangu's Practice of Tranquility and Insight, that's good too- it's actually not an mm book, it's on the standard sutra-style shamatha and vipasyana.

So can I practice the teachings of this book without a teacher?
You can do anything you want to, nobody is going to stop you. The correct question is: "Will there be any benefit to me practicing the teachings in this book without the guidance of a teacher?"
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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passel
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

Zolbec wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 pm
passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:13 am If you go w Thrangu's Practice of Tranquility and Insight, that's good too- it's actually not an mm book, it's on the standard sutra-style shamatha and vipasyana.

So can I practice the teachings of this book without a teacher?
Read it and find out.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

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PeterC wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:49 am

Of course anyone *can* buy and read any book they like. The question is whether they *should*. Ask any vajrayana teacher what they think about that question, including the ones who are publishing these books: we all know what answer you'll get. For most of these texts, if you pick up the book it will have a similar warning on the cover or in the introduction.

Imma go ahead and dispute this a little, because I actually have asked teachers about this kind of thing, and they spoke with a pretty different voice than what I hear from the more zealous of the DW preacher set. Namely, they all encouraged me to read books like this, providing I was not confusing myself. Instead of saying "none of this will do you any good at all without the right X". I have never been discouraged from reading a book of this sort, at any rate.
So why are these teachers publishing these books? Because they want translations of important texts and commentaries thereof to be more widely available; because they've seen in recent history that important texts can be lost very easily; and because their students sincerely request that they do this. Doesn't mean that they think it's a good idea to read them without first receiving the relevant teachings.
You don't know why all these teachers publish their books, and acting like there is one single answer to that, which you happen to be aware of, is ridiculous. There are lots of unrestricted books and teachings on looking at the mind, and on shamatha/vipaysana by lots of teachers. The OP is not asking if he can practice a deity, etc. There are certainly teachers who both put out completely unrestricted videos, and unrestricted books, with the sort of material that would be in a "sutra Mahamudra" presentation type book such as the Tranquility and Insight one, with no expectation that everyone who uses the instructions will have a teaching connection to them. It seems bizarre to me to discourage someone from buying such a book.
Do I think that if someone reads this book without first receiving the teachings, then Mahakala will appear and split their head open with a blazing khatvanga? No, probably not. I'm just saying that it's *better* to first get instruction from a qualified teacher. This is how this material has been taught and learnt for centuries, and I don't feel that I'm in a position to say that all those lineage masters were misguided and I know better.
You're also not in a position to put words in teacher's mouths, but people do it all the time on DW for the sake of "steering people in the right direction". It's a nice sentiment, but honestly the stick has already been bent so far in one direction it's about ready to snap.

I think it's tremendously silly that someone is asking about a book which involves Shamatha/Vipaysana and people are talking as if it's a restricted sadhana or something, even with the distinction in the material of "Mahamudra vipaysana" etc.

It's reasonable to say that one can't really engage in Mahamudra without a teacher, but the parochial attitude is really just too much, it's almost comical lately, not everyone who asks about a book is some child that needs a reprimand.
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Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Pero »

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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Zolbec wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:29 pm
passel wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:13 am If you go w Thrangu's Practice of Tranquility and Insight, that's good too- it's actually not an mm book, it's on the standard sutra-style shamatha and vipasyana.

So can I practice the teachings of this book without a teacher?
No.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Malcolm »

Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:28 pm

I think it's tremendously silly that someone is asking about a book which involves Shamatha/Vipaysana and people are talking as if it's a restricted sadhana or something, even with the distinction in the material of "Mahamudra vipaysana" etc.
Śamatha and vipaśyāna practiced according to the Mahāmudra tradition is qualitatively different than sūtra śamatha and vipaśyāna. The former depends on introduction and the latter does not.
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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:28 pm

I think it's tremendously silly that someone is asking about a book which involves Shamatha/Vipaysana and people are talking as if it's a restricted sadhana or something, even with the distinction in the material of "Mahamudra vipaysana" etc.
Śamatha and vipaśyāna practiced according to the Mahāmudra tradition is qualitatively different than sūtra śamatha and vipaśyāna. The former depends on introduction and the latter does not.

Having read such books by Thrangu Rinpoche, I don't find that a convincing argument for discouraging someone from investigating this book, which is what is going on here. In fact, While I do not recall what is in that specific book to the letter, many of his books contain both styles of instruction on Shamatha and Vipaysana. There are certainly techniques in said book that don't require introduction. Hell, I've seen *you* casually recommend some instructions of the type in the book in posts on DW, knowing nothing of the posters background. Maybe you were in a different mood. No one needs introduction to attempt looking at their mind, though certainly their results are bound to be more limited. In addition to this, we have no idea what this persons background is anyway.

Additionally, there is also the case of folks in other traditions (Chan, Zen, Theravada etc.) who might benefit greatly from reading such instructions supplementally, despite never having had introduction or pointing out instructions.

But I am sure there is some stodgy "official" reason that can be dredged up (as there always is) to avoid the fact that people would likely benefit from exposure to said material even without introduction, and i'm equally sure people will continue to put them forward in the joyless, reprimanding, unhelpful fashion they have always done on DW when people ask questions like this.

It'd be great if this person was able to find a teacher and receive pointing out instructions, fantastic in fact, and he or she should certainly do so if they have even an inkling of an opportunity.. in lieu of that I think it is patently ridiculous to dissuade them from reading this book by Thrangu Rinpoche in particular.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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Re: Beginner in Mahamudra

Post by passel »

Malcolm wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:26 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 7:28 pm

I think it's tremendously silly that someone is asking about a book which involves Shamatha/Vipaysana and people are talking as if it's a restricted sadhana or something, even with the distinction in the material of "Mahamudra vipaysana" etc.
Śamatha and vipaśyāna practiced according to the Mahāmudra tradition is qualitatively different than sūtra śamatha and vipaśyāna. The former depends on introduction and the latter does not.
This book is not sutra mm, it's just sutra. Commentary on the Bhavanakramas.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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